A Conversation About the Beast Empire as it Relates to Rome Etc

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Est 08-27-2005 Changed ----

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Doubters may ask - what about the Roman nature of the endtimes beast?  Is this not a Roman Empire?  What about the power over "all nations, kindreds, and tongues"?  How can the antichrist kingdom be middle eastern?  Is it not worldwide?

The relevant "Roman" Bible text follows this introduction-

Do not forget that Rome is a chief sponsor of Mideastern endeavors because Rome wants to sit in Jerusalem and has since 1054AD. Rome was the chief source of CIA intelliengence after WWII and the Vatican is sought by CIA and KGB as a " power tool. "   See the book Unholy Trinity by Loftus and Aarons for a glimpse into intelligence and the Vatican subsequent to WWII.
Now we read of the introduction of a political "beast" in the book of Revelation [around the time of mid-tribulation].

Revelation 13:1   And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy .

Please note where the BLASPHEMY resides initially - on the heads , not the horns.   Later it spreads to the entire beast, which is the ten horns or ten kings

 The seven heads are the 7 hills of Rome, Revelation 17:9.  Please note that the power over "all nations" takes place in REGARDS TO WORSHIP at first, then, economics. This worship aspect is that of Rome, not the political aspect as such; and therefore the location of the political endtime beast is neither European nor Roman, for reasons we cited earlier.  However, the religious BLASPHEMY eventually spreads and inhabits the entire beast (Revelation 17:3 - full of the names of blasphemy ).

Here in Revelation 13 we read that the BODY (political) of the beast is the leopard of Alexander the Great of Daniel 7th chapter.
The walking part is the bear (Media-Persia) or Iran ( to be conquered ) and the MOUTH (voice) is the Lion or Babylonian aspect.

To see that the Roman religion is Babylonian in origin we read-

Historical references to Babylon may be found in Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons .
we read in Hislop

" She, as the moon-goddess, Melkat-ashemin, "Queen of Heaven ... she as Aphrodite, or the Wrath-subduer" was called Mylitta, "the Mediatrix " ...

The Two Babylons by Hislop demonstrates that the "Queen of Heaven" is none other than the goddess worshipped as "Mary" and promoted as a sinless mediator since December, 1854, by the Vatican doctrine of the "immaculate conception."

We read in Dispensational Truth by Larkin

" When Attalus III, the Priest-King of the Chaldean Hierarchy, fled before the conquering Persians to Pergamos, and settled there, Satan shifted his capital from Babylon to Pergamos.  At first he persecuted the followers of Christ, and Antipas was one of the martyrs.  But soon he changed his tactics and began to exalt the church, and through Constantine united the Church and State...Constantine wished to weld his Christian and Pagan subjects into one people, and so consolidate his empire ."

Please note that the priest king fled to Pergamos ("where Satan's seat is" in Revelation).

In Morris Kline's Mathematic Thought from Ancient to Modern Times by Oxford Univ Press, a secular source, it is said that Attalus of Pergamum left his books to Rome. Mark Antony had given this collection to Cleopatra, which when added to the Babylonian temple books not burned came to an enormous total.

Furthermore, Dispensational Truth by Larkin says that this same Attalus, " the Pontiff and King of Pergamos, died in 133 B.C. [and] bequeathed the headship of the "Babylonian Priesthood" to Rome...In B.C. 63 Caesar was made "Supreme Pontiff" of the Babylonian Order, thus becoming heir to the rights and titles of Attalus, Pontiff of Pergamos, who had made Rome his heir by will...So in AD 378 the Head of the "Babylonian Order" became the Ruler of the "Roman Church.  Thus Satan united Rome and Babylon In One Religious System ."

Therefore, Rome is Mystery Babylon the Great because the Babylonian religion was passed down to Rome.  This BLASPHEMY (of the Babylonian religion) will spread into a dominant position in the endtimes 10-king confederacy.

The fact that Rome has an interest in the Clash of Civilizations is seen here .

Revelation 13:2   And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13:3   And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:4   And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:5   And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:6   And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Revelation 13:7   And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations .

Revelation 13:8   And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Read the ensuing verses in chapter 13 to find the false prophet promoting the worship of the antichrist.  This could well be a Roman pontiff.  In connection with this read the words attributed to John Paul II by Malachi Martin .  In particular, note the section regarding Revelation 13:13.

As significant as the Roman aspect is, it does not change the location of the political beast.  If the political nature of the beast was over every nation, how could Russia and China attack the beast?  It is the WORSHIP aspect and resultant economics as well (to enforce worship) that is worldwide and Roman in origin, starting with the 7 heads (7 hills of Rome).

See also the study of the Ten Kings .

If this region of Jordan/Iraq becomes the political "beast",  no wonder  "ALL THE WORLD WONDERED AFTER THE BEAST."  Rev 13:3

An email exchange with "EC"-
Modifications to this conversation ( in this color ) are being made on 06-22-2003 in response to " Bee 's" email of 6-6-2003. Thank you, Bee .

EC's words are in red.

Thank you very much for your email.  I enjoyed reading it.  I copied a little of it so we could talk about some of your points.

I disagree with your analysis of the role Europe will play.

I'm looking for a crafty figure who can unite the whole mideast under his power and then marry the mideast to the west by taking over the E.U. I think if you look at revelations closely and the prophecies in daniel you will see that the whole statue in daniel 2 will be on the scene when christ returns, all of the empires that existed previous to the ten toes will be united under the rule of the 10 horns and the antichrist at its head. Right before Christ returns we find that the feet are supporting the whole statue....the feet being the power base.....I don't think that he will stay in europe he will just use it for his power base, he will probably reside in rebuilt Iraq and travel back and forth between Israel Iraq and the E.U

In reality, the difference between your view and mine may very well be minute .  Here’s why.  If you read the portion of Revelation (Revelation 13:7) which describes the “power” of the antichrist as being “worldwide”, you see that this is in regards to WORSHIP and the economic enforcement of worship (“ all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him ”, Rev 13:8).  The political beast per se, however, (as you point out in quoting Revelation below) has the BODY of a leopard .  Dan 7:6 clearly shows that the “ leopard ” represents the Empire of Alexander the Great .  Your link to the empire of Alexander the Great (and to that of Assyria) does show clearly that Alexander’s Empire would be primarily “Assyrian.”  My point is not that the antichrist has NO power over Europe (after his resurrection).  My point is that the BODY of his kingdom is NOT in Europe, but it is “Assyrian.”  We agree - he will probably reside in rebuilt Iraq – and he will travel making his eventual headquarters in Jerusalem itself.


EC's link to Alexander the Great's empire : http://www.american.edu/dgolash/alexemp.html
EC's link to a Map of Assyria : http://www.aina.org/maps/historic/650bc.htm

Revelations seems to confirm this, only that it says 7 heads referring to every empire that ever ruled over the Jews.
I agree that these 7 heads refer to kingdoms that have dominated or controlled the Jews.

Yes, Revelation DOES confirm that the primary embodiment of the beast is that of a leopard (as you quote below).  This is where we differ - I believe that since the BODY is that of a leopard , all 10 kings will probably come out of this body area.  You do not- you believe that the Roman Empire (i.e., the Western Part of Rome is included).  However, since Eastern Rome IS included in the area of the leopard, then, Rome is already included, without necessarily making any of the 10 kings from Western Rome.  Now, to those living at the time, it is hardly going to matter at all .  Death will be the order of the day (worldwide).

1.Egypt  2.Assyria  3.Babylon  4.Medo-Persia  5.Greece  6.(Holy Roman Empire broken in pieces)  7.Revived Rome 10 (Antichrist Beginning of tribulation)  8.Whole world (Antichrist Resurrected)

I agree completely with your list (above) of the EIGHT.
Except, I would describe the 7 heads as follows:

Here is the relevant text-
Revelation 17:9   And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

(This refers to the seven kingdoms, "mountains", that the woman will "sit on" (that is, control, through "fornication" with the political leaders) simultaneously as ONE RELIGIOUS KINGDOM during the tribulation, actually the last half.  The ONE RELIGIOUS KINGDOM that the woman "sits on" will occupy the geographical territories of those in the list, who dominated and controlled the Jews. )
Revelation 17: 10   And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

(The FIVE kings that had "fallen" in 90 AD at the time of the writing of Revelation were:
1.Egypt  2.Assyria  3.Babylon  4.Medo-Persia  5.Greece)

At the time of the writing in 90 AD, one " is ", this would be the then Roman Empire, the 6th " king ".  

The "other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."   This is the 7th "king" who is the antichrist, the one who confirms the covenant with many for one week, but who apparently is assassinated (cutting his time " short ") during the first half of the week.  See this and this for a discussion of the week .  For a discussion of Rome's Strategy , see this.   Again, this is a " king " upon whom the woman will "sit."

Revelation 17:11   And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

After the ascension of the "beast" from the "bottomless pit" in Revelation 11:7 (the apparent resurrection of the assassinated antichrist), the antichrist will be the 8th king and he will be "of the seven", that is, of the same RELIGIOUS kingdom as the previous seven.  That is, the woman will "sit on" (control) the antichrist AFTER his resurrection.  See also this discussion of the antichrist .  For a discussion of the time of the antichrist , see this.

End of 06-22-2003 insertion

 The difference (as I described above) is that you insist that “Revived Rome” must include ALL of Rome (well at least the EU part).  From the verses you have quoted, there is nothing to support the absolute necessity of Western Rome’s inclusion.  In fact, the words “revived Rome” is made from an inference, not from verbiage in the Bible. I once wrote a book called the Iron and the Clay (unpublished) and I certainly can not disagree with your statement that the 10-toed beast MUST exist at the time of Christ’s return.  However, this does not (in and of itself) support the inclusion of Western Rome in the political empire.

In fact, I THINK this topic has SOME IMPORTANCE – the habit of pointing at the EU as the “Revived Rome” of the Bible allows the antichrist’s political to rise without notice .  You agree with me about the Assyrian origin of the antichrist (who later has power with 10 kings).  Some of the 10 kings are from Europe, you say.  My point is that of all the people who say the EU is the political empire, the vast majority say the antichrist is from the EU as well.  This distinction (EU is the empire and the “Assyrian” is the emperor) is a combination rarely made.  (It must be shown that the "Assyrian" is also referred to as the "King of Assyria" and this means that he is not a descendent of Assyria living in another country, but is in fact the King of the geographic area once known as Assyria.  See Isa 10:12)

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard , and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

I have always wondered how the beast in revelations could be the seventh ruler and then become the 8th. I think I finally know the answer, he is considered the 7th before his resurrection and then becomes the 8th after his deadly wound is healed.
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

I agree with your words on the EIGHTH, but, it is still inconsequential in determining whether you or I are correct about the 10 kings.  Clarence Larkin says there are TWO “sons of perdition.”  One was Judas, the other will be the antichrist.  Of course, a nation does not go to “perdition.”  People do.  Larkin says they are, in effect, the same personage.  Interesting.

I don't know if you are familiar with Ahmad Chalabi, he is one character I'm watching very closely.

Yes, I am aware that the Dept of Defense loves Chalabi, but, the Dept of State can’t stand him.  This one is interesting as well (along with the Jordanians).

We could be really close to the end of this age 20 years or less in my opinion.

I agree with you on timing as well. (Although it probably won't take 20 years).

On a separate topic I would like to illuminate a technology that is slowly being integrated into the internet, IPV6, a new protocol that allows every device on earth to be assigned an ip adress. IPV4 is what most of the internet is using now and it only supports 4 billion unique ip addresses. This may sound like a lot of addresses but it isn't. In the future printers, cell phones, refrigerators, cameras, cars and just about anything you can envision will be a part of this global web, IPV6 makes this possible because it allows almost unlimited addresses.......This will really globalize communication...Most of the web will support this technology by 2006-2008.

I am in the computer software business., but, I really appreciate your pointing this out because I had not really looked at it from this viewpoint.  (Most of my work is on the AS400 platform).

One other point- concerning the “Roman” nature of the woman , not the beast -
That woman is that “ great city that reigneth (present tense in 90 AD) over the kings of the earth .”  It is in this sense (for sure) that Western Rome IS included in this scenario. Religious worship is at stake.

Western Rome (Vatican) has desired to conquer Eastern Rome for a thousand years.
  They are busy today trying to do so still.
And see this.
And they are intimately involved with “fornication with kings”

For more intrigue, read
Thank you for your excellent letter and God bless you richly.

End 05-09-2003

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