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come to KNOW the Lord personally. 07-01-2004 Reader writes- I heard a preacher on the radio teaching a sermon on Elihu in the book of Job. It startled me when he started talking about Elihu. He accused Elihu of being a Pope because he thought he was the final word for Job. He accused him of pointing a finger at Job and had no right. He also quoted Elihu saying the Lord speaketh once, yea Twice, yet man perceiveth it not. He accused Elihu of thinking himself as having all knowledge. He said that it was just his opinion in what he said and was not inspired. He said Elihu was young and thought he knew it all. He said Job didn't answer him because he had been there before. He said Job didn't have to answer him. He said Elihu didn't have anything fresh to offer him. Then he said Elihu got mad and insults Job. He says he is skipping over alot of verses but you aren't missing anything. But he says when he gets to chapters 36 and 37 he starts to make sense. I was shocked at the things he said about Elihu. There was no spiritual message at all in his sermon. The reason I am asking you what you think of Elihu in the book of Job is because I believe you may know the reason he spoke to Job. I guess I am wanting someone to verify what I feel the Lord revealed to me concerning Elihu. Years ago, when I was reading Job, I came to the scriptures of Elihu and felt that he was a messenger instead of God to show Job God's righteousness. Everything he said to Job was not like Job's other 3 friends. He stated that the Lord speaks once, yea twice, yet man doesn't perceive it. I believe he was telling Job this because God was using him to tell him his words. Then when I got to the end of the book , I saw that God did not speak against Elihu. In fact, he didn't even mention his name. For years I never heard anyone preach on this topic and wanted someone to verify that I was interpreting it correctly. I trust that you can help me on this. -- Answer I am rereading a great deal of Job to give you a complete answer, but, I know for a certainty that ALL the speakers are teaching us during these "discourses", Job, the 3 friends (even when it is a negative lesson-what not to do), and Elihu. When I read the book, ALL of it teaches me and I never looked at it any other way. ALL the speakers speak some truth. The question remains - what is their ATTITUDE and what is the SOURCE and ORIGIN of their spiritual position? Is it self made or from the Lord? Also, what is OUR attitude about teachability? Eliphaz seems hard, cruel. Bildad is full of "proverbs" and though he gives traditional truths he is a dogmatist. Zophar knows everything about the Lord and why he does everything (the height of presumption). These men quote traditional proverbs but, where is their EXPERIENCE with the Lord? And what of their ATTITUDE? Are they religious to the point of irreverence and pride? Immediately, the attitude of the preacher who made these remarks about Elihu being a "pope", etc, comes across as a lack of teachability. His attitude tells us more about him than it does Elihu. The preacher seems to be guilty of that which he accuses Elihu, that is, IF he makes no consideration for spiritual truth that Elihu DID speak. Plus, the preacher seems to be angry just like Elihu (32:2-3). Elihu's anger against the 3 was justified, but, his anger against Job was premature. When it comes to understanding the book of Job not 1 in a 1000 really understand it (Job 33:23-Elihu said this) . Job describes the purpose and source of suffering as being from the Lord to teach His children (the " evil the Lord had brought upon him "- 42:11). Religious people (self righteous) have NO idea what this is about. Part of the discourse of the 3 friends presents the view that it must be Job who is responsible (because it can not be the Almighty, in their view). This is a perfectly "natural" viewpoint (even though it is wrong) and this view is reflected in even saved people. I went back to the beginning of Job and started rereading it before I make a comment specifically about Elihu. it seems to me Elihu has a greater understanding of the Lord than the 3 friends because (as you said) the Lord does not rebuke Elihu when he rebukes the 3 friends (Job 42:7). Elihu spoke much truth, including 33:14, however, some of his last words were " He will not afflict " (37:23) and we know this is false because he does "afflict." The objective of this is found in Job 42:6. The thing this did with Job is to cause him to have " prayed for his friends ." (42:10). Bringing us to nothing causes us to pray for others and our experience with the Almighty is important in this and all areas. Many people's experiences are not Biblical, therefore these experiences are false, especially if their attitude is revealed to be proud and self sufficient in any area (including knowledge). Are they humbled or do they appear condescending? Elihu's God does not deal with men according to a petty "religious" formula, but, the 3 friends are full of morality and limit the Almighty and so the 3 are quick to judge Job, whereas, Elihu is not so judgmental. One who is judgmental has no real understanding of the Almighty. Whether through Elihu, 3 friends, or the casual unintended and "unrelated" remark of a total stranger, the Lord can speak to us (if we are listening). It is up to us to LISTEN and hear the voice of the LORD. Limiting the Lord is not a good idea. I, personally, listen to the words of Elihu because there is much understanding of the Lord in them. In no way am I angry with him. The Lord spoke to you AND to me through Elihu. " He that is perfect in knowledge is with thee " is the title of one of my pages. If the Almighty singled you out for a message from Elihu, I would hear him because the spirit tells you it is Him talking. I hope this helps you. Russell See also this for more information on "Job" experiences . --- 07-11-2004 The same reader replies- Let me tell you a few things I was revealed about Elihu. His name in Hebrew means ( He is my God) or (God of him) He said " The spirit of God hath made me and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. He said " Behold, I am according to thy wish (his soul) in God's stead: I am also formed out of clay." " Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee." For GOD SPEAKETH ONCE, YEA TWICE, YET MAN PERCEIVETH IT NOT. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, That he may withdraw man from his purpose and hide PRIDE from man. Notice: IF THERE BE A MESSENGER WITH HIM, AN INTERPRETER, one among a thousand, to show unto to man his uprightness: Then he is gracious unto him and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a RANSOM. ( An atonement) His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth.( This is like the new birth.) He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he SHALL SEE HIS FACE with joy: for HE (GOD) will render unto man HIS righteousness. He looketh upon men, and if any say, I HAVE SINNED, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not; He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the LIGHT.. Elihu wanted Job to hearken to THE VOICE OF HIS WORDS. Elihu said that Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom. His desire for Job was that he may be tried unto to the end because of his answers for wicked men. He also said "Hear attentively the noise of his (the Lord's) VOICE and the SOUND that goeth out of his mouth. He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth. After it a voice roareth: He thundereth with the voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend. Notice he said to listen to his voice and the sound that goeth out of his mouth. Then he said "After it a voice roareth. He knew the Lord was going to speak to Job. Then notice the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said Who is this that darkeneth council by words without knowledge? The Lord also said "Who hath put wisdom in the inward part? Or who hath given understanding to the heart? The Lord also said " Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reprovrth God let him answer it. Then Job answered the Lord, and said," Behold I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay my hand upon my mouth." Job later said " I have HEARD OF THEE BY THE HEARING OF THE EAR, but now MY EYE SEETH THEE. Wherefore I REPENT IN DUST AND ASHES." I think the Lord spoke to Job ONCE through Elihu and the Lord spoke to Job TWICE or the second time from the mouth of the Lord in the whirlwind.. Psalms 62:11- God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God. Elihu was almost like an invisable presence among them and was not mentioned in the beginning of Job, only the three friends. Also The Lord did not mention him at all. He didn't seem to be a friend of Job or the three friends. It's as if the Lord sent him there for his purpose. Notice he spoke with authority. He tried to make Job see that he was according to Job's wish instead of God Look at what Job said." I know it is of a truth; but how should a man be just with God?" If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand." He also said " Oh that one would hear me! behold my desire is, that the Almighty would answer me, and that my adversary had written a book. When Elihu spoke they were amazed, they answered no more. Elihu said the breath of the almighty had given him life. He said Suffer me a little, and I will show thee that I have yet to speak on God's behalf. I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and ascribe righteousness to my maker. I believe he was filled with the spirit and God used him as a messenger to speak to Job. Notice Job or his three friends never said a word to Elihu and chapter 37 ends with him speaking and all at once chapter 38 The Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind. Elihu has always been a mystery to me. I see what you mean by the word afflict in 37:23. I looked in the Living Bible although I don't like to use other versions because they can add to or take away from some scriptures. It said- We cannot imagine the power of the Almighty, and yet he is so just and merciful that he does not DESTROY us. No wonder men everywhere fear him! For he is not impressed by the world's wisest men. This would make sense, even though he afflicts us we will not be destroyed if we repent and turn to him. This Job did and was restored. The Lord told satan Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. Even the apostle Paul was given a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of satan to buffet him lest he should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations he had. Three times he asked the Lord that it might depart from him. And the Lord said to him, My GRACE is sufficent for thee, for my strength is made perfect in weakness. The Lord said that Job was a perfect and upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil. but there was pride in him. Can you be an upright man, fear God and yet be self righteous? There are many who are morally good, go to church, and say they fear God. But they are lost because they have not submitted to the righteousness of God. There are even true christians that can get pride such as Paul but the Lord has to chasten us to get us on the right path. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. I appreciate you reading my e-mails and answering them so promptly. God Bless you --- Answer Your view of Elihu proper is something that I have really not considered. But, I believe you are onto something here. Even though Elihu did use the word "afflict" ( He will not afflict ), perhaps, as you say, he meant it in the sense of destruction or, better still, perhaps, he meant from OUR perspective. He does say in 36:8 that they are " holden in chords of affliction "; consequently, he must have not been saying that there is no affliction. In 36:15 he does say " he delivereth the poor in his afflliction ." In 36:21 he says " this (iniquity) thou hast chosen rather than affliction" also. We know we must choose affliction to really know God. See Phillipians 3:10 . Job "chooses" affliction upon hearing the words of Elihu AND the Almighty. "Choosing affliction" means to accept the necessity of it in order to understand our true nature and the truth that affliction IS an act of the LORD. Now, this verse you quote " I have HEARD OF THEE BY THE HEARING OF THE EAR, but now MY EYE SEETH THEE. Wherefore... I REPENT IN DUST AND ASHES ." is even deeper than I thought (LOL). The reason I say this is that I was not thinking of the symbolism of Elihu proper . I do know that the Lord taught me, spoke to me, and brought me to Proverbs 1:23 and this was an overwhelming realization, just like Job. As you intimate, Elihu came from " nowhere " and he went " nowhere ." He must therefore represent (or even BE the Spirit of the Lord) because He spoke the Words of God TO Job DURING HIS AFFLICTION . Awesome!!! I know this is true for a fact. [It happened to me.] . There is a scriptural parallel for not focusing on "Elihu" himself, as opposed to his message - " When he, the spirit if truth, is come; he will not speak of himself " My focus has been on I have HEARD OF THEE BY THE HEARING OF THE EAR, but now MY EYE SEETH THEE. Wherefore ( I ABHOR MYSELF , AND) REPENT IN DUST AND ASHES My experience with the Almighty told me the same things that I believe you are saying- the LORD speaks to His children DURING AFFLICTION . In this case, Elihu personifies the beauty of this awesome truth . I have said many times that the very Words of God saved my life. And as you stated- " There are many who are morally good, go to church, and say they fear God. But they are lost because they have not submitted to the righteousness of God ." Yes, they have substituted their own righteousness. God bless you, Russell 07-11-2004 07-14-2004 Reader asks- Russell: How old do you think the universe is? Were the creation "days" 24 hours? When God says his creation was "very good" do you believe that means there was no animal death, pain, etc., before the fall? I know this has nothing to do with the "end times" but I wanted to get your thoughts ---- Answer 1) How old is the universe? I have no idea and physicists say they do. However, I can not see how they can state unequivocally because the basic nature of things (physics and chemistry) has changed, after the fall. I do believe that the earth was created at the same time as the heaven because it says so in Genesis 1:1. (I could hazard a guess, but, it would be nothing more.) 2) Were the days 24 hour days? Since it says the evening and the morning were the first day, 2nd day, etc; Yes, I do. 3) I believe that the whole creation "fell" after the fall of Adam. This would include the 2nd law of thermodynamics which has things "decaying"/death. This would include ALL life . 4) I do want to point that in the Book of Genesis it talks about CREATED and MADE , making a distinction between ex nihilo (from nothing) creation - and alternatively MADE. In the BEGINNING God created (out of nothing) the heaven and the earth, Genesis 1:1. However, during the RESTORATIVE WEEK ( seven 24-hour days ) he "made" many things to reappear (symbolic of rebirth). During the RESTORATIVE week, he did create (ex nihilo) man and cattle, birds and fish. However, apparently He had already created light in the original creative act and he made light to appear (or so it seems). He also made the seeds, which were ALREADY in the ground (having been created previously), to grow after he dried the land during the RESTORATIVE week. These seeds were in the earth buried under the water, "the deep" . Apparently the earth had gone through a "judgment" (fall of Satan?) rendering the original perfect creation "null and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep." So, the RESTORATIVE week is SYMBOLIC of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ in that on the 3rd day dry land appeared, etc . The seed (spirit) is IN the earth (body) ready to make fruit, etc . The RESTORATION came OUT OF DEATH (Baptism of the deep), life from death. When Adam and Eve sinned they were coated with the skins of animals (sacrifice FOR SALVATION). No one knows the time (if any) between the "in the beginning" and the beginning of the restorative week. Beautifully, it is said of man, Let US make man in OUR image - this is God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit creating man . The " US " is mentioned FIRST when referring to man - how beautiful!!! In the beginning "GOD", Elohim (a uni-PLURAL noun) CREATED the heaven and the earth. Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word of God, SPOKE all things into existence. Russell End 07-14-2004 07-15-2004 Reader writes- Scientists have discovered that the world has existed for around 6000 years, thus, the world was created around 4000 BC. I think it was 4002 BC to be exact. There is a lot of proof supporting this. One I can remember is that Earth's magnetic field has been degrading over time. Scientists reversed the effects in a simulation or something like that and discovered that before the year 4000 BC, humans would not have been able to survive due to the strength of the magnetic field. Then again, before the flood, Earth had a canopy of water above it and it cave in causing a massive flood. This changed the way we now live (much shorter lives) and our environment is different so who knows... Response As for the time of the creation of the earth I have read no recent studies. However, I do know that it had never rained until the flood of Noah. As you call it ("a canopy") surrounded the earth (others have called it a "greenhouse.") In other words, there was no such thing as "weather" as we know it now (pre-flood). This moist atmosphere insulated the inhabitants of the earth from the sun and life was prolonged. See the drastic reduction in life span immediately after the flood of Noah. Life span was so great during the pre-flood era that 4 men could have transmitted the entire story from Adam until Abraham (nearly 2000 years), because their successive lives overlapped on a time line. These 4 men were Adam, Lamech, Shem, and Abraham. Just to show you the providence of God - Methuselah, the oldest man ever recorded, lived 969 years and his name meant "he will die when it is come." Methuselah died the very year of the flood. If you are surrounded by unbelievers, remember this - Noah preached for 120 years and NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON believed him. I was visiting a man in Georgia (whose entire house was done in a "western" motif). He had photographs from western movies, six guns hanging from his bedposts (made from uncut tree trunks), and Indian headresses, spears, old rifles, and a 2 volume 1852 study by the United States Department of the Interior on the "Native American Indians." Each volume was approximately 400-500 pages. On about page 30 something of volume one it said the Native American Indians are descended from Shem. How interesting. Did you know that the Europeans are descended from Japheth? What was Noah's prophecy? " Japheth shall dwell in the TENTS of Shem !!!!" (Genesis 9:27) In 1969 I was driving home from work late one night and I heard a radio show "God's News Behind the News " out of St Petersburg FL. I believe the speaker was Ray Brubaker and he was describing a computer simulation which was conducted to track the earth and the sun (and their relative postions). The computer program apparently halted with a MISSING DAY - exactly 24 hours. So, to find these missing 24 hours they ran the model and came up with a 23 hours and 20 minutes and accounted for all but exactly 40 minutes. Do the following verses explain this? 2 Kings 20:10 let the shadow return backward ten degrees . A day = 24 hours. Ten degrees of a day would be (10/360) times 24 hours. Which is (1/36) times 24 hours = 24/36 hours = 2/3 hours = exactly 40 minutes. Joshua 10:13 So the sun stood still and hastened not to go down about a whole day . Since we accounted for 40 minutes, this leaves us with 23 hours and 20 minutes, about a whole day . If the Almighty God can turn the shadow of the sun BACKWARD ten degrees and can make the sun stand still for 23 hours and 20 minutes, who would say there is anything He can not do? In fact, the ENTIRE controversy between Copernicus and "the church" resulted simply from a misunderstanding of the church regarding what the Bible said. (True Science can never contradict the Bible.) The Bible said " in the sight of Israel " the sun was to stand still (Joshua 10:12). This does not mean the sun stopped moving in its orbit about the earth (which "the church" claimed it said). As Israel viewed it, the sun was still. It could have been due to the earth changing its rotation. The Lord put those words " in the sight of Israel " in the Bible for a reason. This was no magic trick either because the sun DID NOT GO DOWN, allowing Israel to defeat its enemies (they did not have night vision goggles). Additional Conclusion - Do NOT MESS with the WORD of the LIVING GOD!!!! You can bet your LIFE that it happened EXACTLY as He wrote it down in His Letter to us - the Holy Bible. Every WORD of GOD is pure!!!! End 07-15-2004 07-31-2004 Question- I was listening to a radio broadcast and the host of the show asked a Christian guest [1] if someone came along and made "peace" in the Middle East would it be fair to say many Christians would look at that person as the anti-Christ . The guest answered by saying "that would probably be the case but nobody knows for sure unless you study the Bible in great detail." The host then asked the guest if he thought " the end " was near. The guest said, [2] " No. The Bible states before "the end" Israel must totally disarm, own claim to a region in Jordan (cannot recall the specific region named), and all Israelites must settle in Israel ." The guest did not quote scripture or really reference any text because the show was not really about the end times. Where, if at all, does the Bible refer to the scenario mentioned by the guest? Answer- [1] First of all, “someone ” is not going to make “peace.” “Peace” will be made involving many people. This has nothing to do with the Bible, just common sense. It will take a minimum of 2 parties to make “peace.” Now as to Bible prophecy and making “peace” – it says nowhere in the Bible that the antichrist is going to “make peace”. There is only ONE place in the Bible that connects the antichrist to “peace.” The Bible says “by peace he shall destroy many .” (Daniel 8:25). This does not say the antichrist “makes” peace. This says the antichrist USES peace to destroy. In no way can it be inferred that the antichrist “made peace” from this context. Consequently, it is not those that “make peace” that are prophetically identifiable. It is those who enforce peace that are prophetically identifiable. As I outline here http://jesus-is-the-way.com/Dan9_27.html The role of the antichrist is to “ confirm the covenant .” However, there is nothing in the Bible that says per se that this “covenant” is for “peace.” Saying that the “covenant” is a “peace covenant” is done only through an inference. The page above emphasizes that the “covenant” (whatever it means) will ALREADY exist at the time the antichrist begins to “ confirm ” (enforce) it. I also explain on the page why “ confirm ” means to enforce. I do believe the enforcement of the covenant is related to "security." So, the antichrist himself may or may not "make" peace. Further, as to the timing of the end, the Bible does say “ when they shall say peace and safety; the sudden destruction cometh upon them… ”(1 Thess 5:3) Therefore, the destruction of the tribulation comes when it is said that there is peace and safety. It could therefore be concluded that a “peace” agreement will have been made BEFORE the tribulation begins. You can not confirm something for seven years unless it comes to pass at the instant of the first nano-second of the tribulation or it preexisted the seven year tribulation. The Bible does not say that the antichrist himself will sign or participate in the formulation of such an agreement. [2] There is no place in the Bible that says that Israel will “ totally disarm .” In fact, in the book of Zech 14:12 it talks about eyes consuming away in their sockets. This is the very effect produced by the neutron bomb, which Israel has had since the Carter administration. The neutron bomb kills people within a short radius without destroying structures. Ezekiel 38-39 does say that the Israelis will be a land of “ unwalled villages ”, “ dwell safely ”, “ are at res t”, “ dwelling without walls ” (Eze 38:11) at the time of the Magog invasion. This implies that “peace” is in effect. Israel is, ironically, building "the wall". Will they tear it down? Sounds like it. Look at the sequence of events here- http://jesus-is-the-way.com/PostWar.html The outline shows in order the remaining events- 1. US invasion of Iraq 2. New government in Iraq 3. “Peace” process 4. Rapture 5. Magog invasion (some say it could be during the tribulation; none say before the rapture except the mid and post tribbers whose postion is not scriptural. If the Magog invasion is during the tribulation, this would mean the 1st half of the trib has no war. I doubt this. ) 6. The tribulation (of course, when this begins, there are 7 years until Jesus returns to the earth .) 7. The physical return of Jesus Christ to earth. So, to answer the question - are we near “the end”? – we ask “the end of what?” I am assuming by this is meant the rapture. Looking at the outline above, we have left 2, 3, and 4. [I include 2 because it is not "finished."] How far is [2 and 3] from the end? I would not be one who says “ my Lord delayeth his return .” No one knows how long these things could take. This includes the gentleman you heard on the radio. Who is he to say it is NOT near? Those who say it is NOT near are in violation of the long held doctrine of imminence. --
The gentleman says [Israel must] own claim to a region in Jordan Well, without a verse, it would be difficult to address this topic. This could be true. However, I’d like to see the chapter and verse because I know of no such assertion in the context of BEFORE the tribulation. However, there are many verses concerning Ammon, Moab, and Edom [all part of Jordan] and the judgments of them. One that comes to mind is- But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. -- Isaiah 11:14 (Ammon, Moab, and Edom are in Jordan) However, when you read the next few verses it appears that the context leads to the millennial reign of Christ which would imply that this occurs after the second coming. There are other verses such as Eze 25:13-14 which show a “fury” and “vengeance” on Edom. These too do not lend one to believe it is in the context of peace, i.e., BEFORE the tribulation. --
The gentleman says "all Israelites must settle in Israel ." It is clear from scripture that only a “remnant” of Israel is saved. Does the gentleman believe that all Jews worldwide will return to Israel? Does the gentleman believe that scriptures on Israel refer to “natural” Israel (descendents of Isaac and Jacob)? The Bible says not all those who claim to be Israel are true Israel in any case (see Rom 9:6). The Bible does say that “all Israel shall be saved.” This refers to national Israel in the millennium because we know that only a “remnant” are saved and enter into the millennium. End 07-31-2004 08-24-2004 Reader writes- I am confused and wonder if you could help me understand the difference between the ten kings in Revelation and the ten kings in Daniel. Dan. 7:23- Thus he said, the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon the earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break in pieces. 24- And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall arise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue THREE KINGS. 25- And he shall speak great words against the most high, and shall wear out the saints of the most high, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given unto his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26- But the judgement shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, toconsume and to destroy it unto the end. 27- And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Now look at Revelation---- Rev. 17:9- And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10- And there are seven kings; FIVE are FALLEN, and one is, and the other is not yet come;And when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11- And the beast that WAS, and IS NOT, even he is the EIGHTH, and is of the SEVEN, and goeth into perdition. 12- And the ten horns which thou sawest are TEN KINGS,which have NO KINGDOM as YET, but receive power AS KINGS ONE HOUR with the beast. 13-These have ONE MIND, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14- These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: For He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. 15-And he saith unto me, The WATERS which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 16- And the TEN HORNS which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall burn her with fire. 17- For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil HIS WILL, and to agree, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18- And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the KINGS of the EARTH. In Daniel there are ten kings and then the eleventh being the little horn, before whom he subdues three kings. The little horn was one of the seven kings, but it makes him the eighth king when the three kings are subdued. This makes eight kings and not ten kings. But in Revelation there are ten kings that have power one hour with the beast. Could these be different kings than the ten kings in Daniel, since they were not really kings until the beast gave them power as kings for one hour. Also it says in Revelation that there are SEVEN kings, FIVE are fallen, one is , and the other is not yet come, making it TWO kings when the other comes. Also the second beast has TWO HORNS like a lamb and he speaks like a dragon. Could the two horns here mean two Kings? He exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. I am really confused and I don't understand but maybe we are not meant to understand since we are not going to be here. The Lord said we are to look for the Lord Jesus and not the antichrist. But I can't help but be fascinated about end time prophecy. Answer- Dan. 7:23- Thus he said, the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon the earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break in pieces. The Roman Empire . 24- And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall arise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue THREE KINGS. The 10 kings that will form the endtime confederacy. He that arises after the 10 is the antichrist, who will take his position by subduing three of the ten. Now look at Revelation---- Rev. 17:9- And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. The beast (a political power) has TWO aspects - seven heads and ten horns. The ten horns are identical to the 10 kings of Daniel. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth (in order to control the beast as her servant and in order to be supported by the beast). Regardless of what the seven represents, it is safe to say that it is a DIFFERENT aspect of the same beast which also has 10 “horns.” Consequently the 7 and the 10 are NOT going to correlate mathematically. The seven mountains could well identify that the woman is Rome because Rome is a city on seven hills. In this sense the seven mountains are NOT the same as the seven kings (in verse 10). It seems to me that the phrase “ and there are seven kings…” implies this position by making a distinction between mountains and kings. So, the seven kings appear to be additional information about the beast rather than an explanation of the seven mountains. However, the woman is a religious institution (a harlot) who controls the beast upon its rising. In either case, the Roman nature of the beast is expressed by virtue of the woman riding the beast (not necessarily its geographic embodiment). This woman is she who martyrs the saints. By the way, the geographic embodiment of the beast is the “leopard” (which is the body of the beast), the Grecian portion of the vision of Daniel. See this for information on the leopard. 10- And there are seven kings; FIVE are FALLEN, and one is, and the other is not yet come; And when he cometh, he must continue a short space. So, the seven kings could represent 7 kingdoms, apparently successive. These would be seven kingdoms with a direct relationship to Israel: 1. Egypt, 2. Assyria, 3. Babylon, 4. Medo-Persia, 5. Greece, 6. Rome, and 7. the last kingdom (the 10-kinged kingdom). If the seven kingdoms are correct, then, the five that had fallen in 90AD (the time John wrote the Revelation) would have been: 1. Egypt, 2. Assyria, 3. Babylon, 4. Medo-Persia, 5. Greece. The king that “IS” would have been the then current ruler over Rome, the 6th. The 7th which “is not yet come” (since it is a single king) must represent the antichrist BEFORE he is incarnated by Satan at the mid-point of the tribulation (rather than all 10-kings who reign BEFORE the antichrist does). Thus, the 7th king is the antichrist at the beginning of the tribulation. 11- And the beast that WAS, and IS NOT, even he is the EIGHTH, and is of the SEVEN, and goeth into perdition. There are many interpretations for this – some say that this “beast” is BOTH the kingdom of the antichrist and the antichrist proper (at the time the antichrist is incarnated by Satan at the mid-point of the tribulation) and the 10 kings “give” their kingdom to the antichrist. “Perdition” would be the eventual destruction for the kingdom and the eventual judgment for the antichrist. So, then, what is that which WAS (used to be), and IS NOT (90 AD), that will be the EIGHTH king? Interestingly, we read that the beast that goes into perdition first ASCENDS out of the bottomless pit (the abyss)- The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. -- Revelation 17:8 How did the antichrist get into the bottomless pit? Remember, we are discussing the 8th king who upon ascension out of the bottomless pit is in the temple showing himself to be god. Guess how many times the word “perdition” appears in the Bible? EIGHT times. The expression “son of perdition” appears twice. 1st occurrence of son of perdition: While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition [Judas]; that the scripture might be fulfilled. --John 17:12 2nd occurrence of son of perdition: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin [antichrist] be revealed, the son of perdition; -- 2 Thessalonians 2:3 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit . -- Revelation 9:1 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. -- Revelation 9:2 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. -- Revelation 9:11 Is it possible that Abaddon (Apollyon), the angel of the bottomless pit, WAS in the body of Judas Iscariot (before he went to perdition), ascends and enters into the body of the antichrist? This would mean he that WAS (when he was in Judas) and now IS NOT, shall ascend out of the bottomless pit. Perhaps there is another explanation. One point I am trying to make here is that a kingdom (that WAS) does not ascend out of the bottomless pit. In any case, the 8th king is the antichrist to “continue forty and two months ” whether he is incarnated by Satan or by Apollyon or neither (and is just influenced by one). 12- And the ten horns which thou sawest are TEN KINGS,which have NO KINGDOM as YET, but receive power AS KINGS ONE HOUR with the beast. 13-These have ONE MIND, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. The ten kings have no kingdom as yet because they are YET future and the nature of their confederated power is in association with the antichrist. 14- These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: For He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Upon the physical return of Jesus Christ (they that are with him too) the Lamb defeats the 10-kinged confederation and the antichrist. 15-And he saith unto me, The WATERS which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. The scope of the power of the whore is worldwide. She controls a sphere including many people (genetics and cultures), nations (political realms), and languages (not just a local phenomenon). 16- And the TEN HORNS which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall burn her with fire. The ten kings apparently discover the truth of the “fornication” of the whore and turn against her. Will it be the Muslim nations discovering the truth about the Clash of Civilizations ? 17- For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil HIS WILL, and to agree, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. The Lord causes the unification of the ten kings (to agree) and the surrender of their autonomy to the antichrist. 18- And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the KINGS of the EARTH. That woman is Rome. Many say it is the United States. The prophecy does not fit the US. In Daniel there are ten kings and then the eleventh being the little horn, before whom he subdues three kings. When this is complete, there apparently are STILL ten kings, 3 of whom yield in a way to make way for the antichrist. They could not have received power as kings one hour with the beast if they no longer existed. The little horn was one of the seven kings, but it makes him the eighth king when the three kings are subdued . This makes eight kings and not ten kings . ( The 8th king exists simultaneously with the 10 kings, the 8th is the “resurrected” 7th king [of the successive kings] the same person in a different state, and these, 7/8 [of the successive kings], are mutually exclusive from the ten who are simultaneous. ) But in Revelation there are ten kings that have power one hour with the beast. Could these be different kings than the ten kings in Daniel, since they were not really kings until the beast gave them power as kings for one hour. The “ten toes” of Daniel are the ten horns of Revelation. However, the seven heads of Revelation may not be identical to the seven kings of Revelation. Revelation makes it clear that the seven kings are sequential in that five are fallen, one is, and one is not yet come. Revelation does not say the seven horns ARE the seven kings. We have already explained the seven kings (and the 8th who is OF the seven kings). Another possibility- If the seven heads (Rev) are DIFFERENT from the seven kings (Rev), this could be true in that the seven heads represent the seven kings (of the ten) who are NOT subdued. The three who ARE subdued still exist but have given up their kingdom making way for the antichrist. However, the analysis of the 8th king would still apply to the successive kings. The seven heads would be simultaneous horns of whom the antichrist is also the 8th of this 2nd group. Also the second beast has TWO HORNS like a lamb and he speaks like a dragon. Could the two horns here mean two Kings? The two horns here are like those of a ram (sacrificial lamb) imitating the Lamb of God, that is, this personage is religious in nature. He exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. The second beast (like a lamb) promotes the worship of the antichrist, the first beast. This personage has the worldwide religious power to enforce worship of the antichrist whose “wound was healed.” This personage could come from Rome in that they have worldwide influence. See how the false prophet could be connected to Babylon . End 08-24-2004 08-30-2004 QUESTION: How do you refute a Jehovah's Witness who says the following scriptures teach that Jesus Christ is a created being? And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead ; that in all things he might have the preeminence. -- Colossians 1:18 and And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God ; -- Revelation 3:14 ANSWER: I can assure you that there is no point in arguing with a Jehovah's Witness. No one is more "right" than a Jehovah's Witness. My grandmother was one and said that " they shall be in torment day and night forever and ever " does NOT mean torment. My point here is that those who are God's children exhibit the quality of humility, that is, they are teachable. Jehovah's Witnesses are anything but teachable. To read about "teachability" read this, especially if you are a Jehovah's Witness . My philosophy on a Jehovah's Witnesses is this, either accept Christ or not; the way the Bible presents Him or not at all. No one can accept Jesus on their own terms. They must accept Jesus on HIS terms. No one can accept a fake Jesus. The only Jesus Christ one can accept is the real one as presented in ALL Bible verses. The Bible must be taken (ALL verses) to present a consistent picture of the truth. So, if our understanding of one verse contradicts another verse, our understanding is wrong. The following verses in Colossians demonstrate the absolute preeminence of the LORD JESUS CHRIST, God in the flesh. Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: -- Colossians 1:12 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: -- Colossians 1:13 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: -- Colossians 1:14 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature : -- Colossians 1:15 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: -- Colossians 1:16 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. -- Colossians 1:17 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. -- Colossians 1:18 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; -- Colossians 1:19 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. -- Colossians 1:20 My question to the Jehovah's Witness is this - Was Jesus Christ DEAD before he was BORN? We are to take the phrase ( firstborn from the dead ) as meaning that Jesus Christ was CREATED from the DEAD? Creation means ex nihilo, from nothing. The dead exist and therefore can not be created. There is ONLY ONE understanding of the phrase FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD and it is this - Jesus Christ was the FIRST to experience RESURRECTION resulting from HIS own death and burial on the cross. The rest of us experience the NEW BIRTH only because HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD first - i.e., He was the FIRSTBORN. It has nothing to with Christ's being "created." But, in all His power and His majesty it DOES show that He came for the very purpose of death on the cross and resurrection according to HIS OWN PLAN which plan HE created BEFORE He created all things. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God ; -- Revelation 3:14 This in NO WAY says Christ was created as an OBJECT. This is a statement clearly indicating that Christ was the CAUSE of creation. Christ WAS the beginning, the ultimate cause, the creative force, the creative intiator, the VERY ESSENCE of which is SPEAKING all things into existence. The WORD of GOD spoke all things into existence and Jesus of Nazareth IS THE VERY WORD OF GOD as the rest of the following verses attest. The Jehovah's Witnesses use the New World Translation which alters the meaning of John chapter 1 because it refutes their viewpoint. The New World Translation is taken from the same text as the NIV, by the way. John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with Go d , and the Word was God . The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:10-14 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not . He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh , and dwelt among us , (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God . 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born , unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God , The everlasting Father , The Prince of Peace. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh , justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. If there is only one God and He was manifest in the flesh, who can He be but the LORD JESUS CHRIST? End 08-30-2004 09-15-2004 Reader Writes- Reading some info on your site, noticed a reference to the Gog/Magog war as being during or right at the beginning of the Trib. Doesn't Rev 20 shed light on Ezek 38, so that one understands that it is after the 1000 year reign of Christ? See Revelation 20: 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. ANSWER: Excellent question- From the website- Dwight Pentecost's point in Things To Come (with which I agree) is that it does little good for the Lord to be known to many nations [Ezekiel 38:23] at the end of the tribulation. Where would be the opportunity to be saved? It seems that being known in the eyes of many nations is for the purpose of turning the lost to the Lord. Further, since the Lord at the end of the millennium has already filled the earth with knowledge of Himself for 1000 years, He would not destroy Gog for increasing knowledge of Himself after having done so for 1,000 years. Additionally, since the earth is burned by fire at the end of the millennium, But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. -- 2 Peter 3:10 why would there be a need to purge the land (Eze 39:11-13) of the bodies (if the Gog invasion was at the end of the millennium)? Consequently, the Gog invasion is at the mid-point of the tribulation or more probably even earlier. The setting in Revelation 20 seems completely different than Eze 38-39. Here's why. The setting in Revelation 20 includes the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth , [including] Gog and Magog ,... the number of whom is as the sand of the sea ... [they] compassed the camp of the saints . In Revelation 20 fire comes down and devours them [not so in Ezekiel 38:22 where it an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire and brimstone ] If fire did devour them in Ezekiel where would be the need to burn their weapons as in Ezekiel 39:9 (since the weapons would already have been burned)?]. Revelation 20 says nations from everywhere (not so in Ezekiel), as the sand of the sea (not so in Ezekiel), compassed the camp of the saints (not so in Ezekiel; in Ezekiel it is the Israelites only being attacked). Therefore, the inclusion of Gog/Magog in Revelation 20 (among other nations not mentioned in Ezekiel 38-39), does not necessarily identify the two events as the same event. Ezekiel 39:2 says a sixth part of the Gog/Magog forces are left, thus leaving a part for the post millennial "torching" of Revelation 20. End 09-15-2004 10-03-2004 Reader Writes- Could the Gog and Magog war be the battle of Armageddon? The reason I think it could be is because of these scriptures: Ezekiel 38:20- So the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, SHALL SHAKE AT MY PRESENCE, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. Ezekiel 38:7- So I will make MY HOLY NAME KNOWN in the midst Of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL; and I will not let them pollute my HOLY NAME ANYMORE: and the heathen shall know that I AM the LORD, the HOLY ONE of ISRAEL. Ezekiel 39:22- So the house of Israel SHALL KNOW that I AM the LORD their GOD FROM THAT DAY FORWARD. Ezekiel 39:29- Neither will I HIDE MY FACE ANYMORE FROM THEM: For I have POURED OUT MY SPIRIT UPON THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. Compare with--- Zechariah 12:8-10 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Compare with--- Zephaniah 3:8-9 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may call upon the name of the Lord to serve him with one consent. If the Gog and Magog war happens before the battle of Armageddon then that would mean that Israel would know that Jesus is Lord before he comes at Armageddon. I thought that the remnant of Israel would not believe on Jesus until he comes back and set his feet on the Mount of Olives.( Zechariah 14) ANSWER: Excellent question. Before I deal directly with the reasons that you gave for Gog/Magog being at the battle of Armageddon, I want to present another problem with this idea that would still have to be reconciled (even if you take your viewpoint as true). Of course, everyone agrees that Armageddon is at the end of the tribulation. The timing of Gog/Magog on the other hand is thusly- Eze 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,... that dwell in the MIDST OF THE LAND (Eze 38:12). We know also that in the second half of the tribulation the Jews will be under persecution from the antichrist and that the Jews will be given " two wings of a great eagle " to escape the antichrist " that she may fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, times, and half a time, from the face of a serpent ." (Rev 12:14) This is clearly in the second half of the tribulation time = 1 year, times = 2 years, half a time = one half a year, for a total of three and one half years; the last half of the tribulation. That the serpent is most active in the person of the antichrist in the second half is clear from the book of Revelation. These conditions require that Israel NOT be dwelling in the MIDST OF THE LAND (but in the wilderness ). Since Jerusalem is " tread under foot forty and two months " by the Gentiles in Rev 11:2, and since the antichrist will be persecuting the Jews during this same period, the Jews will not be dwelling safely , without walls , as required by Eze 38:11-12. This alone seems to preclude the Gog/Magog from being in the 2nd half of the tribulation, which would also include the battle of Armageddon. If the Jews have been air-lifted out of Israel, they are not in the midst of the land dwelling safely awaiting the Gog/Magog invasion. The battle of Armageddon (according to Joel 2:3) includes ALL NATIONS. This is not true for the Gog/Magog invasion, in which specific nations are identified as participating and in which specific nations (which do NOT participate) are shown asking WHY the nations which DO participate are doing so. Joel 2:3 says " I will gather ALL NATIONS, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat... " On the other hand, Eze 38:13 shows some nations questionning the Gog/Magog invaders. These nations are not part of the invading force. Assuming that the view presented here is correct, there must be a logical answer to your question using the scriptures you cited. You quoted- Zechariah 12:8-10 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. And you quoted- Ezekiel 38:7- So I will make MY HOLY NAME KNOWN in the midst Of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL; and I will not let them pollute my HOLY NAME ANYMORE: and the heathen shall know that I AM the LORD, the HOLY ONE of ISRAEL. Ezekiel 39:22- So the house of Israel SHALL KNOW that I AM the LORD their GOD FROM THAT DAY FORWARD. The quote you gave of Zechariah 12:8-10 is clearly a reference to Armageddon and the ensuing 1000 year reign of Christ. The 2 quotes you provided from Ezekiel are, of course, descriptive of the time of the Gog/Magog invasion. Your quote- I thought that the remnant of Israel would not believe on Jesus until he comes back and set his feet on the Mount of Olives. There is no recognition of Jesus Christ per se in Ezekiel 39:22 (during Gog/Magog). There is recognition, however, that the God of Israel who acted on their behalf in the Old Testament is once again acting as the protector of Israel. However, in Zechariah 12:8-10 there is a CLEAR link between Jehovah God of the Old Testament and the crucified Savior Jesus Christ. This is one of the most beautiful pictures of Christ in the entire Bible. It seems that these verses say that God the Father was pierced on the cross ( they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced ) and that the Son of God Jesus Christ shall be mourned over ( they shall mourn for him [Jesus Christ], as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him [Jesus Christ], as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.) So, it is at the point of His physical return that Jesus Christ becomes equated (in the mind of saved Israel) to the Lord God of the Old Testament who also fulfilled the Ezekiel 38-39 prophesy just a few years earlier. Presently, Israel is a secular nation. They will return to the Lord God of the Old Testament at the Gog/Magog invasion. They will REALIZE that Jesus Christ IS this same Lord upon His physical appearance at Armageddon, which involves ALL NATIONS. End 10-3-2004 11-08-2004 QUESTION: "Jesus is the way" is just plain bullshit! Who are you to tell people your way is the right way. Get your head out of the Bible and start thinking like a rational human. Last time I looked it was the 21st century. a proud New Jersey Atheist ANSWER: Thank you for the email. You would be right, if I was telling people "my way". I am not telling people my opinion, which is useless, by the way. My ways are NOTHING but "filthy rags." http://jesus-is-the-way.com/Broken.html I am telling people what Jesus said- "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me. " - Jesus Christ John 14:6 Jesus also said " The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge [you].." John 12:48 The very thing that people reject, the Bible, will be their judge. The Word of God is the instrument by which all creation came into being. This same Word was made flesh and dwelt among us as a man. His name was Jesus of Nazareth. The reason He came to this earth was to suffer a brutal torture and to DIE in your place (so you would not have to be separated from His blessings.) How can we ignore such love? God Almighty left heaven's glory and became a servant and shed His blood for YOU! In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. -- John 1:1-3 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. -- John 1:10-14 The Bible says that the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. I appreciate your advice. However, since the Bible is going to be our judge, it behooves us to read it and believe it because " it pleased God by the FOOLISHNESS of preaching to SAVE them that believe ." (1 Cor 1:21) I am going with the "foolishness" of God rather than the "foolishness" of men because the " foolishness of God is wiser than men." (1 Cor 1:25) As to the 21st century, I must say - " Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my WORDS shall not pass away ." - the Almighty Please do not say to the Lord that you are rejecting His love, Russell http://jesus-is-the-way.com/Memory1.html End 11-08-2004 12-09-2004 (original) 12-12-2004 (modified) QUESTION: Are you a Calvinist? ANSWER: First of all, labels are not helpful in describing what a person is or believes. Just like- are you a Baptist? Catholic? Methodist? Presbyterian? etc. Even if a person would say YES to any of these labels, would it mean he knows or believes the doctrines of these groups? Would it mean he is saved or lost? Doctrine is so weak and watered down in all respects with all groups that it is difficult to know what other people believe. They do not know what they believe themselves. Simply put - I believe in the Bible as the infallible, eternal Word of the Living God. I believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ as presented in the Bible. The following depicts Salvation that is presented in the Bible . That is what I believe. I may not understand all of it, but I believe it all. But, wait, I do not have to understand it all! Since being born again, I have had " He that is perfect in knowedge " (Job 36:4) in my heart. So, I am lacking in nothing because He saved me, He kept me, and He is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith. Since it is none of my doing, I can delight in my ETERNAL SECURITY in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Why do I rejoice? Since Jesus said - John 6:39 And this is the Father's WILL which hath sent me, that of all which He hath given me I should lose NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day - then there can be no doubt that ALL of God's elect will absolutely NEVER be lost. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, but, we must call upon Him in truth (Psa 145:18). You can not make up your own Jesus and call upon the one you made up. You can not lie to the Lord about who you are and then call upon Him. You have to call upon Him in truth, about Him and about you. Nothing else will work. What we think of ourselves is worthless. We need to find out what He thinks of us and using that TRUTH, then, call upon Him. Read this for a glimpse at the truth . I am not making light of the question, but I never met John Calvin. However, I have been reading a lot lately and there is NO DOUBT in MY MIND that the question (not yours), but the one in the public forum is a TRICK QUESTION, a straw man, designed to faciliate a backgound for conflict. Such conflict will be used in the future to martyr the tribulation saints. This conflict has as its ultimate objective the destruction of the Protestant fundamentalists. Why is this a goal of some? The absolute certainty of salvation through the gospel places man under the sole authority of the Holy Spirit, not some organization. If you go on the internet and search for "extreme Calvinism", you will find that this topic has been widely discussed and a virtual war with the so-called "extremists" (the Calvinists) is on-going. It is one thing to have a reasoned doctrinal discussion on the subject. It another thing to enter into the realm of character assassination and angry emotional appeals. (The reader can tell the difference between the two approaches). It is the latter that I am addressing. At present the "war" is one of the intellect, but during the tribulation martyrdom will be at stake. The arguments in many venues are designed to create loathing of the "Calvinists" and at the same time arguments are given to solicit members to the "Calvinist" side of the ledger. Both tactics are designed to yield a larger and more encompassing future societal pogrom. (See the Book of Revelation.) The question to the reader is, if the martyrdom of the Book of Revelation is real, how will it come about? Let me say here and now that the use of the term "Calvinist" (by the adversaries of the so-called Calvinists, those same people who SEEK to create a " war on fundamentalists ") is virtually interchangeable with "Islamic terrorist." [If you do not believe this, go to the aforementioned page and search for Calvinism.] It is not the "Calvinists" who are the problem. It is those who want to create discord. The purpose of "terrorism" is to create a "war on terror." The purpose of "Calvinists" is to create a "war on Calvinists." The origins and the extent to which "terrorism" exists is widely debated in the public forum. The same can be said of the publicly depicted "loathsome Calvinist." [The reader can differentiate between legitimate discussion and emotional appeals.] So, the real targets of the powers-that-be are neither terrorism nor Calvinists, but war. Why is that? Conflict is the means to change society to their liking. [Note: the President of the United States is not one of the powers-that-be . He is as much of a victim as a cab driver in Fallujah.] Who is the target of such anti-"Calvinist" emotional appeals? The answer is the lukewarm "christian", the religious man who goes to church, but has never been born again. He has met every requirement of his "religion" (pick any one you want) and he has NEVER called upon the Lord in truth . He will be on earth during the tribulation. Judging from the Book of Revelation and current developments he is going to be an angry man too. He will take out his anger in the interest of avoiding "extremism", nay eliminating "extremism", in the interest of a commonly acceptable ethical, moral, and religiously "peaceful" standard - which you may feel free to translate as anything other than the Lord Jesus Christ - in order to rid the world of BAD people, aka "extremists." Precedents for such is already underway. BAD people can now be convicted in high profile court cases on circumstantial evidence BECAUSE they are BAD, period. Being guilty of a crime is not the issue in these cases. Watch for this trend to accelerate when the definition of BAD extends to ALL religious "extremists." If we look around us, we see a lot of angry people chomping at the bit to "punish the wicked." It extends into every area of life. The so-called "Calvinists" are no exception. So, the question will not ultimately be "What is a Calvinist?" (a legitimate question), but, which one of these guys (in this lineup) is the "Calvinist?" - a sad state indeed. End 12-09-2004 (12-12-2004) 12-13-2004 QUESTION: What exactly is a Calvinist? From what I understand and have read about them, their view is very much the same as ours. Are they extremists? ANSWER: Calvinists are not extremists. This label is being used to create a "Straw Man" so that a conflict can be created among and against Protestants. John Calvin was one of the prime movers in the Protestant reformation. Much of the criticism of "Calvinists" to which I am referring has nothing to do with doctrine, however. The Calvinists believe in the "5 points" (TULIP)- Total depravity Unconditional election Limited atonement Irresistible grace Preservation of the saints 12-14-2004 There is some discussion as to the exact nature of limited atonement, which means that the atoning death of Christ is effectively only available to the elect. The question comes down to - would you rather believe in the sacrifice of Christ which is incapable of saving all men even though He wanted to or would you rather believe in the sacrifice of Christ which definitively saved every single one of the elect ? In the final analysis, no one is saved who is not also elected because all the elect are saved and only the elect are saved. I can not imagine Jesus dying on the cross and then His people having to go to hell also (creating a dual punishment). Consequently, every single person for whom Christ died WILL WITHOUT QUESTION BE SAVED!! Preach this gospel to everyone that will hear it!! Nay, preach this gospel to EVERYONE!!! God is absolutely sovereign and every man is responsible to God because every man is a sinner. All sin must be judged. The sins of the saved are judged on the cross of Jesus. The sins of the lost are judged in eternal separation from God. Only the Spirit of God through the word of God can show a man that he is truly lost and in need of a Savior. John 6:39 And this is the Father's WILL which hath sent me, that of all which He hath given me I should lose NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day - then there can be no doubt that ALL of God's elect will absolutely NEVER be lost End 12-14-2004 How we get there is the issue. Due to total depravity, we are incapable of even having faith. Therefore, faith must be given. Eph 2:8-9 says that faith is a gift of God. The real question boils down to - did Christ die for the sin of unbelief? Think about this one. For many, including me, one realizes the gift of God while looking backwards at the experience of salvatio n . In reality, very few protestant denominations adhere to 5-point Calvinism. Presumably, the primary reason there are not many "Calvinist" denominations is that people do NOT really believe in Total Depravity. They SAY they do, but, they do not comprehend the depths of it . Reconciling these issues may well relate to the STAGE of the process in which the believer finds himself, based upon the revelation he has received. One denomination that is Calvinist is the PCA, Presbyterian Church in (or of) America, for example. However, the PCA does not believe in the Rapture and they have some prophecy issues. Since few denominations even believe Calvinism, practically speaking it is an artificial label. There are very few formal Calvinists. Translation - we must be the "dirty rotten Calvinists." ;>) because we believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. End 12-13-2004 12-24-2004 Reader Writes: Dear Russell, I want to ask you if the antichrist has a confederacy with Edom. These scriptures seem to indicate this. Obadiah verse 7-- All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee even to the border (of Israel) : the men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee, and prevailed against thee; they that eat thy bread have laid a wound under thee: there is no understanding in him. 8- Shall I not in that day, saith the Lord, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau? 9- And thy mighty men O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter. Teman is a town or a tribe in the northern part of Edom about 3 miles east of Petra according to the Zondervan Pictorial encyclopedia of the Bible. Daniel 11:23-- And after the league made with him (confederacy) he shall work deceitfully; for he shall come up and shall become strong with a small people (Edom) Obadiah verse 2--- Behold, I have made thee small among the heathen; thou art greatly despised. Daniel 11:26-- Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain. The antichrist seems to acknowledge a strange god-- Daniel 11:12-- Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. I believe this strange god is allah. It says that Edom and Moab and the chief of the children of Ammon escape out of his hand. I may be wrong but I think it is because the Lord Jesus is going to be the one to destroy these countries himself. Obadiah 8-- Shall I not in that day, saith the Lord, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau? Read Zeph. Chapter 2 Amos chapter 1 and 2 Joel Chapter 3 Isaiah 63 I agree with you that the antichrist will be an Assyrian. God Bless You, ANSWER: Read this link to see verses that are specifically and clearly pertinent to Edom and the antichrist. It is clear that the judgment of Edom is presented in Obadiah. It also clear that Obadiah 1:15 shows that part of the judgment of Edom will occur at the Day of the Lord. However, it is difficult to extend this case to Daniel 11:23 and Daniel 11:26. First of all, taking Daniel 11:26 by itself, it is difficult to make the antichrist out of this verse alone. That is the case because the person in Daniel 11:26 is destroyed by those that eat at his table. Since the antichrist is "destroyed" by the return of the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e., placed in the lake of fire, Rev 19:20) he can not be "destroyed" by men at his table. Therefore, Daniel 11:26 does not refer to the antichrist at all. This would mean that Daniel 11:23 would not refer to the antichrist either. Daniel chapter 11 is certainly all prophecy. However, much of Daniel chapter 11 has already been fulfilled since the time of its writing by Daniel (in the persons Antiochus, Ptolemy Philometer, and Antiochus Epiphanes.) Particularly, verses 21 to 31, inclusive, refer to Antiochus Epiphanes and (quoting Clarence Larkin from page 241 of the Book of Daniel ) was literally and completely fulfilled by him as foretold, so there is absolutely nothing in these verses left for the future [Dan 11:21-31]. Further confusion on this topic abounds (among those who say ALL of Daniel 11 has already been fulfilled, because some of it was fulfilled , and therefore parts of Daniel 9, especially 9:27, have already been fulfilled as well.) It must be noted that Antiochus Ephinanes sacrificed a swine on the alter in Jerusalem. This is the abomination that maketh desolate of Daniel 11:31. However, Daniel 11:31 is NOT the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Christ in Mathew 24:15 because Christ's described event is yet future and is the fulfillment of Daniel 9:27 overspreading of abominations . Apparently, Daniel 11:32-33 refers to the period between Antiochus Epiphanes and Messiah the Prince, (164 BC - 30 AD) because in them we see both the valiance of the Maccabeean Revolt (166 BC - 47 BC) and those Jews who forsook the covenant of their fathers. Apparently, Daniel 11:33-35 refers to the period from Messiah the Prince until the time of the end. This period (33-35) coincides with that described in Luke 21:24 These same verses cover the time period, the gap, between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks. This would make Daniel 11:36 - Daniel 12:13, the time of the willful king , coincide with Daniel's 70th week, the tribulation of the Book of Revelation and the resumption of Daniel's prophecy for the Jews. Given this scenario, I would look at your hypothesis with a fresh start. I do appreciate the question because it helped me solidify a few things. End 12-24-2004 12-31-2004 READER WRITES The covenant of the law given to Moses- Deut. 4:13-23. The covenant of the promise given to Abraham - Gen. 17:1-6. The covenant of the promise in the new Testament- Gal. 3:14. "That the blessings of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus christ ; that we might receive the promise of the spirit through faith". 3:17- And this I say, that the COVENANT, that was CONFIRMED before of God IN CHRIST, the law, which was 430 years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect". The covenant of the law was given to Moses 430 years after the covenant of the promise was given to Abraham. This covenant was confirmed in Christ when he died upon the cross. His blood took the place of the blood of bulls and goats. His sacrifice, being accepted of God, caused the sacrifices of animals to cease. "And he [ Jesus ] shall confirm the covenant [ covenant of promise ] with many for one week [ seven years ] : and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, [ being accepted by God ] and for the over-spreading of abominations [ by the chief priest and elders ] he shall make it desolate [ Matt. 23:38, Behold, your house is left unto you desolate ] even unto the consummation [ the end ], and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate". Desolate [ strong's # 8076 = desolate ] , and that deteremined shall be poured upon Jeusalem. Daniel 9 :27. Please comment, In the Lord, ANSWER Thank you for the excellent question. First of all, since Daniel 9:27 is an answer to a prayer, it is a good thing to look at the prayer Daniel prayed. A total of seventy (70) "WEEKS" are determined for " thy people", Daniel's people, the Jews, not the saints of all ages. (There is no mention or knowledge of the church in Daniel or his prophecies) Though I do believe in the “commonwealth of Israel ” of Ephesians 2:12, I do also believe there are specific “dealings” the Lord has with the covenant of promise to Israel and to an entirely separate entity, the church . There are saints of all ages whose salvation is that of the promise in Jesus Christ. However, all saints are not members of the church. All of the elect of the present age (whether Jew or Gentile) are in the church (there is no saved Jew who is not also in the church), but there is yet a future dealing with the saints of the tribulation (both of the 144,000 Jews and of the great number of Gentiles of tribulation saints ). Just as the church had its beginning when the spirit descended at Pentecost to indwell the believers in Acts, so too will it have an end (and that end is depicted in Revelation 4:1 and further described in Revelation 3:10 when the true church is shown as being kept from the HOUR of temptation, not the temptation per se). At the time the church age ends, the Jews can be dealt with as Jews again. And, so the 70th week can begin and, it will, upon the Rapture of the church. The reason this distinction between the Jew and the church is important is that the events of the book of Revelation (Chapters 6 – 19) are specifically a continuation of Daniels prophecy. Daniel was told to “ seal the book even unto the time of the end” and, of course, Jesus Christ opens the seals to continue Daniel’s prophecy. ( thou art worthy to take the book and to open the seals ) Whatever interpretation is made of Daniel 9:27, it must be consistent with this scenario as well as all others. The scriptures must fit together in all respects. Continuing with this theme (that Daniel’s prophecy is finished in the book of Revelation) we note that Jesus Christ made reference to the future tribulation saying Matthew 24:21 For thenshall be great tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Pause here for a moment and reflect and you will be left with two choices. The tribulation that Jesus is referring to must be greater than the holocaust of WWII because Jesus said “ no, nor ever shall be .” Consequently, unless you believe that the destruction by the Romans in 70 AD was greater than the holocaust or WWII, this tribulation is yet future. (We know that 50% of the earth’s population will be destroyed in two judgments alone in Revelation 6:8 and Revelation 9:15. This certainly has never happened previously). What was Jesus doing when he said Mat 24:21? Jesus said the above in answering a question, the question was- In Mathew 24:3 " ...what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world ? " Consequently, Jesus could not have been referring to some previous event. No one would ask Jesus the sign of His first coming (after He was already here on earth). the complete text is here- Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation , spoken of by Daniel the prophet , stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Matthew 24:16-20 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. So, it is clear that Jesus said that at the end of the age (at His Second Coming) a catastrophe greater than WWII in which 10,000,000 Russians alone died (and 2.4 million Jews died in Poland alone) would occur. Of this, there can be no doubt. Since Jesus was already on earth, the “ thy coming ” must have referred to a FUTURE coming and not the one in which He suffered and died. Why is this important? Because Jesus Himself tells us HOW his future second coming and the end of the age relates to Daniel’s prophecy. Jesus tells us WHEN the great tribulation begins- Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation , spoken of by Daniel the prophet , stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) I refer you to: http://jesus-is-the-way.com/Endtimes927.html You can read all the other time length correspondences between Revelation and Daniel on this page. Both the prophecies of Daniel’s 70th week and the Book of Revelation are yet future and they are the same time period, witness the sealing of Daniel and the unsealing of Jesus in Revelation, chapter 5. Hopefully, you are not saying that Revelation took place in the past. The time length correspondences of Revelation and Daniel’s 70th week are too great to say they are not the same time period. Given the interpretation that Daniel’s 70th week happened already; this would require the book of Revelation to have already happened as well. This would make the Jesuits right after all! (They have been saying it already happened for centuries to avoid being called “antichrist” by the reformists of the 16th century and their heirs. Of course, lately the Jesuits have changed tactics somewhat and taken to attacking the dispensationalists and Calvinists as upholding the OLD Jesuit doctrine - hilarious ). If this Jesuit view is true (Daniel’s 70th week already happened), all that would matter (because Jesus would already be here in the person of the “church”, i.e., adherents to Rome) and all that would be left is to make the world Christian by having everyone join the watered down church. The Papacy would love this position (along with every other liberal in the world, including the socialists, communists, the National Council of Churches, the World Council of Churches, the United Nations, Vatican II, Pat Robertson, the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) at which Pat spoke and gave his recommendation for a coming world order (see Pat’s book by that name, New World Order), The Trilateralist Commission, the amillennialists, the post millennialists, and every other do-gooder in history.) Can you imagine Paul giving a speech at Athens telling them how to better design the temple of the unknown God? (Acts 17:23). Today’s God consists of making heaven on earth. Of course, the subject matter of your email is Daniel 9:27 which describes the 70th week of Daniel. My point? The words of Jesus in Mathew 24:15 are referring to the same 70th week. The abomination of desolation appears in the midst of the future 70th week of Daniel according to Daniel 9:27. It says in Revelation 19:10 that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy . His testimony is in Mathew 24. There are 3 abominations in Daniel Daniel 9:27 overspreading of abominations shall he make it desolate Daniel 11:31 shall place the abomination that maketh desolate Daniel 12:11 the abomination that maketh desolate set up The question is – Why did Jesus use the phrase the “ abomination of desolation ”? It is the abomination that maketh desolate (see Daniel 12:11), not Jesus’ work on the cross that makes desolation . The abomination is PER SE the thing that makes the desolation . So, the interpretation you presented makes the work of Jesus Himself on the cross an abomination. It is NOT on account of the abomination that we NEED a desolation in Daniel 9:27, but, it is the abomination itself which causes desolation . Daniel 12:11 makes this clear. Parenthetically speaking, see the 12-24-2004 question on this page for a discussion of the applicability of Daniel 11:31. Continuing further with the 430 years to which you referred, the scripture specifically renders the time frame (its start point and length) and the resultant counting methodology of the 69 weeks and they do not include the giving of the law or Abraham, but the commandment to rebuild the temple and the coming of Messiah the prince to be cutoff. Daniel 9:25 refers to an event which starts much later (445 BC and the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem) than the giving of the law of Moses, approximately 1490 BC, or Abraham, even earlier. Therefore, there is no justification for concluding that either of these 2 has anything to do with Daniel’s prophecy. Your interpretation would mean that Daniel’s 70th week had its middle at Jesus’ death. This is an impossibility given the statements of Jesus in Mat 24:15 (and the analysis above showing the abomination as a future event ). Additionally, your interpretation, would render Jesus’ death an abomination. Furthermore, this would mean that the Lord’s future dealing with the Jew during the tribulation, which lasts EXACTLY 2520 days (or the length of the 70th week) would make a total of 71 weeks, the 70th having already happened. The Lord’s dealing with Israel (the Jew) ended when they rejected the Messiah at the 69th week’s end, which, by the way, occured BEFORE His crucifixion (more on this later). It will resume only when Israel is back in Jerusalem and the church age ended. There can be no church age Jew. A saved church-age Jew is in the church. The count is in effect only when the Jews are in Jerusalem. They will be there during the book of Revelation. A total of seventy (70) "WEEKS" are determined for " thy people", Daniel's people, the Jews, not the saints of all ages. (There is no mention or knowledge of the church in Daniel or his prophecies). Sixty nine (69) of these "WEEKS" have already happened. Because these sixty nine (69) "WEEKS" that have ALREADY happened lasted a total of 483 years, we know how long the 70th "WEEK" will be. The length of the 70th week corresponds precisely to the book of Revelation which is clearly stated by the Lord Himself as a future event. The reason we know that the 70th "week" lasts 7 years is that the 7 "weeks" and 62 "weeks" (a total of 69 "weeks"), which have already happened, lasted exactly 483 years = 69 weeks X 7 years/week. The Messiah made His triumphant entry into the City of Jerusalem (Mathew 21:8) exactly 483 years after the commandment of Artaxerxes to rebuild the temple, March 14, 445 B.C. Subsequently, He was "cutoff", crucified, as recorded in Daniel 9:26. Please note that He was crucified AFTER the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks. That is, He was crucified AFTER the 69th week. (Note- a year is 360 days.) End 12-31-2004 Additional comments- 01-02-2005(a) Even if you overlook the clear implication that the death of Christ would become an "abomination" (which you can not), Jesus could not have been the one to cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease due to the fact that the sacrifices continued in Jerusalem for another 40 years (until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD) after Jesus' resurrection. There is nothing to allow anything but a literal stoppage of sacrifices either. However, even if you say that He effectively caused the sacrifices (of animals) to cease, how could He confirm the covenant for another 3.5 years (the second half of the week)? Jesus was not here, but ascended to the Father already. The requirement is that the covenant be confirmed with many for one "week" of seven years. The only way to do this is to divide Daniel's 70th week into 2 halves and have the second half be the future events of the book of Revelation. This is an impossibilty because the two witnesses preach for 1260 days (Rev 11:3), one half the tribulation. Then, (after being killed by the antichrist, Rev 11:7-8) their bodies lie in the streets for 3 and one half days, Rev 11:9-12.. This (by itself) would make the length of the events of the Revelation 1263.5 days (more than half of Daniel's 70th week), thus rendering the theory erroneous. That there is NO time lapse between the Great Tribulation (the 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week) and the physical appearance of the Lord Jesus is made clear in Mathew 24:29-30 when Jesus says " Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." There are other reasons that make the notion of a divided 70th week unsupportable. The first of which is Daniel's prophecy itself. The prohecy would not have been rendered as 7 weeks, followed by 62 weeks, followed by 1 week. The last would have been TWO half weeks, versus one whole week. There is no justification to split the week. In addition to it being a mathematical impossibility, it is a chronological impossibility as well- quoting from Revelation 11:9-12 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half , and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them , and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. So, we see here that the 2 witnesses for God rise from the dead AFTER LYING DEAD in the streets for 3 and one half days. They were killed by the beast who ascended from the bottomless pit. We know that the beast (the antichrist) ascends from the bottomless pit and enters the temple in the "midst of the week ". Therefore the 2 witnesses are killed in the midst of the week after having preached for 1260 days during the first half of the week. Their enemies (also the enemies of God) celebrate their death by giving gifts during the 3 and one half days that their bodies lie in the street. If this happened during the second half of the week, the enemies of God would have already been destroyed at the second coming of Christ and they would not be around for the three and one half days their bodies lay in the street. [There will be no celebrating by the enemies of Christ for three and one half days after Christ returns.] Furthermore, the witnesses could not preach for 1260 days (if they started in the middle of the week) because this would require the ascending of the antichrist out of the bottomless pit to happen at the end of the week, thus, giving the antichrist no time to accomplish anything before Christ returns. Because of all these reasons - one is required to conclude that the two witnesses preach for the first half of the tribulation - 1260 days and that this first half of the tribulation is clearly dilineated in the Book of Revelation and is exactly equal to one half of Daniel's 70th "week." There is another chronological reason that the death of Jesus on the cross is not a fulfillment of ANY portion of Daniel's 70 weeks for thy people , Israel. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the death of Jesus to occur at the end of the 69th week. If one construes the 70th week as immediately following the 69th, His death can not be at the beginning of the 70th week, nor can it be at the middle of the 70th week, nor can it be at the end of the 70th week And so, it is recorded in the prophecies of Daniel. Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off... Since the 7 weeks precedes the 62 weeks and since Messiah is crucified AFTER the 62 weeks, then, Jesus was crucified AFTER the 69 weeks. What is the event that marks the end and beginning of the 69 weeks? Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be SEVEN WEEKS , and THREESCORE and TWO WEEKS According to the meticulous mathematical calculations of Sir Robert Anderson and Clarence Larkin (in the secular works Daniel in the Critics Den and The Book of Daniel , respectively) the 69 weeks ended upon the triumphant entry of Jesus into the City of Jerusalem as recorded in Mathew 21:5-8 and in fulfillment of Zech 9:9. Did you ever wonder why Jesus cautioned His disciples about public pronouncements that would make Him known? The reason for this is that Jesus had a PRECISE moment for this to be done. In Zechariah 9:9 it is said " Thy KING cometh... ". Of course, Jesus will only be King at His Second Coming and it was to O daughter of Jerusalem (not to Jerusalem) that the title KING is given is Zech 9:9. A PRINCE is a King in the making and THIS PRINCE and His arrival is the public fulfillment of Messiah the Prince as recorded in Dan 9:25, not Messiah the King. Jesus encouraged His disciples to find the foal and colt Mathew 21:7. So, He encouraged the public moment at which He was hailed as " blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!!!!" (Mathew 21:9) How awesome is the Lord and His Word!! After the triumphant entry of Jesus into the city (known as Palm Sunday, traditionally) and after the Olivet Discourse Jesus said- Mathew 26:2 And ye know that after two days is the feast of the Passover, and the Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified. As recorded in Mathew 21:18 a day had passed since His triumphant entry and since it was 2 more days until His crucifixion, then, the cross happened several DAYS AFTER the 69th week ended. The crucifixion is several days later and can not be the beginning or the middle or the end of any 70th week following on the heels of the 69th week!! Half of a week is 1260 days. Another reader has asked questions concerning Daniel's 70th week and these will be answered shortly. In so doing, it will be shown that a divided 70th week of Daniel is also a THEOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY (in addition to it being a mathematical impossibility and a chronological impossibility as just shown). End 01-02-2005 (a) 01-02-2005 (b) Dialogue, READER Somethings I do not understand : The last week , does it not comprehend seven years?. Yes, the last week is for seven years. Does it not follow immediately after the 69 weeks? No, it does not follow immediately after the 69 weeks. . Daniel 9:27 will definitely fulfill in the last days . Yes, it will be fulfilled in the last days. Are the 69 weeks not for the last days too?. No, the 69 weeks are NOT for the last days. The first 69 weeks have already been fulfilled. Sixty nine (69) of these "WEEKS" have already happened. Because these sixty nine (69) "WEEKS" that have ALREADY happened lasted a total of 483 years, we know how long the 70th "WEEK" will be. The reason we know that the 70th "week" lasts 7 years is that the 7 "weeks" and 62 "weeks" (a total of 69 "weeks"), which have already happened, lasted exactly 483 years = 69 weeks X 7 years/week. Messiah the Prince triumphantly entered Jerusalem on the precise and exact LAST DAY of the 69th week, exactly 483 years after the commandment of Artaxerxes to rebuild the temple, March 14, 445 B.C. This whole prophecy (of Daniel) was made in 538 B.C. while the Jews were in Babylon at the end of their 70-year captivity. The 1st 69 "weeks" were fulfilled exactly as predicted and the 70th "week" will also. For the prophecy comprehend the 70 weeks as a period of time. No, the prophecy comprehended a total of seventy weeks clearly divided into the following 3 parts- 7 + 62 + 1 = 70 total and all 3 in the exact order listed. Consequently, when the 62 weeks are done, then, the 69 weeks are done also (because the 7 weeks precedes the 62 weeks). Many make the mistake of reading the scripture of after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off as meaning that 7 weeks remain AFTER Messiah is cutoff. This is false because the 7 weeks precede the 62 weeks. The text says - Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be SEVEN WEEKS , and THREESCORE and TWO WEEKS This is clear that from the time of the commandment to restore (Jerusalem) and to build Jerusalem (7) until “Messiah the Prince ” (62) is a “time” represented by two periods (7 + 62). Thus, 7 “weeks” expired from the commandment to rebuild and the actual rebuilding. (see Nehemiah chapters 3-6) 62 more weeks expired until Messiah the Prince (His triumph entry into Jerusalem riding on the foal of an ass (fulfilling Zech 9:9) and recorded in Mathew 21:7-9) There are other prophecies concerning Israel that are for 70 years etc, but, they were given as totals, not with the parts enumerated as in this prophecy of Daniel. Consequently, though other prophecies were fulfilled in consecutive years, this particular prophecy is not necessarily fulfilled consecutively because the prophecy (unlike others) is CLEARLY given in THREE parts (7 + 62 + 1). Whether or not they are fulfilled consecutively, the parts are separated and distinguishable. Those that object to “gaps” per se are reminded of the reading of Isaiah by Jesus in Luke 4:17-20. Jesus was reading from Isaiah 61:2 which reads to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God . After Jesus read “ acceptable year of the Lord ”, He closed the book and stopped reading. The “gap” in that verse has already covered 2000 years because the day of vengeance is yet to be fulfilled and Jesus was clearly indicating that “ the acceptable year of the Lord ” was fulfilled at His reading of the verse. That there IS a gap between the 69th and 70th week is shown in – Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks [that is, after the 69 weeks] shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary ; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. |