St The Antichrist, European Union, and Rome - A Discussion

To Honor Jesus Christ, Glorify God, Encourage Believers, & Warn All
Est 05-17-2003 Changed 07-24-2005
 

This information is offered with the hope that YOU can come to KNOW the Lord personally.


A commonly held belief about the Biblical endtimes is that Europe (currently the European Union) will be revived as the endtime powerful political empire, that Rome will be the headquarters of this empire, that the antichrist will come from Europe, and that the antichrist will rule from Rome, at least part of the tribulation.  There are scores of books supporting this viewpoint and they say that the Bible supports this position.  Are they correct?  

No matter what your position may be, the only correct position is to let the Bible itself speak.  Do not start with a position and then look for scriptures to support the position.  Do not add something to a verse that the verse does not say.  Do not take away from the verse what the verse does say.  Many people repeat hackneyed phrases they have heard and believe that these phrases constitute Biblical truth.  One such phrase is the "Revived Roman Empire" and it appears everywhere.  (There are whole books, televangelists, and web sites dedicated to tracking the number of kings, stars, etc. that are in the present European Union.This viewpoint is more than well represented; it is the majority public viewpoint .) The use of such phrases (as "Revived Roman Empire") helps no one to understand the Bible.  There may be a place for a "Revived Roman Empire" in Biblical prophecy, but, in what sense?   When we conduct a conversation starting with this phrase (or any other non Biblical phrase) instead of the Bible , we are assuredly never going to arrive at all the truth.  The reason for this is that we are not using the Bible as the basis for truth, but, what some man said. The phrase already has a connotation in it and we never ask "What Bible verses are you using to support this idea?"   On this page I refer to such thinking as the RRE-syndrome, or RRES for short.  RRES refers not so much to the idea of the "Revived Roman Empire" but to the habit of not starting with ALL the scriptures as the basis for an idea.  There IS a place for " Rome ".  There is a place for the "Assyrian" as well. Allow the scriptures to tell us what that place is.  If our understanding does not allow all the scriptures to be reconciled , there is a problem.

Once you are persuaded on a matter (by the Bible), you must be prepared to be corrected by the Bible itself (whenever it is shown that your understanding falls short).  That is why I always say -

The Bible is never wrong; my interpretation may be wrong, but, not the Bible.  I stand ready to be corrected by anyone who can show me in the Bible something that I have missed.  In fact, since it is my objective to understand what the Bible actually says and to encourage others to study the Bible for themselves, then, I am always anxious to hear the truth and to be corrected by the truth . So, if you have something I need to see, please do not hesitate to let me know.  I would appreciate it greatly.

The only way to come to a proper understanding is to allow ALL the Bible to speak.  If ALL the verses do not fit together (without contradiction) there is something wrong with us.


Recently, I asked the following Questions on a bulletin board discussion-

1) Is the Antichrist from the European Union or Assyria?
2) Where is "Beast" Empire?


I referred to the following as a place to start the conversation:

'The Geographic Location of the Endtimes Beast Empire ."   See the 05-09-2003 update on the page.  The update refers to an e-mail exchange I had with a reader.  The reader shared some of the view above.  However, I would not describe this particular reader as having RRES. 

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Now, immediately I got the following responses :

Response #1
To answer both of your questions: The European Union.

I made no reply to this because this is mere assertion.  There is nothing about the Bible in this answer.
 

Response #2
According to Daniel, Antichrist is of Roman descent. During the first half of the Tribulation Period his headquarters will be in Rome and during the second half, his headquarters will be in Jerusalem.

Now, I really like this response because he is actually referring to the scriptures for part of his answer.  As we continue the conversation, you will see that he uses the scriptures even more (the right thing to be doing).

My reply-

The king of Jordan's mother is British (Antoinette Gardiner). Hence, he is Roman.

The Bible never says his HQ is in Rome. If you can show me the verse, I'm open.


Then I got Response #2a

Daniel 9:26 predicted the destruction of Temple in 70 A.D., which was destroyed by the Romans. Daniel 9:27 predicts that Antichrist will be of the same people who destroyed Temple in 70 A.D. Rome was the ancient Roman empire's capital, the fourth beast kingdom of Daniel 7. The E.U. is the Revived Roman empire, the Fifth kingdom mentioned by Daniel and Rome is likely again to become it's capital with a future politico (AC) being the E.U.'s leader.

I Thess. 2:3-4 shows us that Antichrist will be physically in Jerusalem when half-way through the Tribulation he stops the daily sacrifices in the newly rebuilt temple and then commits the Abomination of Desolation breaking the seven year treaty with the Jews. This he does out of jealousy of the Jew's worship of the God of Israel.

Rev. 18 describes the destruction of Rome, the seven hilled city, which apparently Antichrist nukes out of jealousy of the Vatican because he demands to be worshipped as God with no competitors. It's believed that AC may be a Roman Catholic. Yes, this is a bit speculative but it's my opinion.


My reply-

My original question was - where is the scripture about the AC's headquarters being in Rome.

    Daniel 9:26 predicted the destruction of Temple in 70 A.D., which was destroyed by the Romans. .
 This is true.

    Daniel 9:27 predicts that Antichrist will be of the same people who destroyed Temple in 70 A.D. .
  This is true.

       Rome was the ancient Roman empire's capital, the fourth beast kingdom of Daniel 7..
 True, but, it says NOTHING about AC's FUTURE headquarters.
 
    The E.U. is the Revived Roman empire, ..
Complete speculation. The "Revived Roman Empire" has no DIRECT Biblical support. It is only an inference, and it    is a wrong inference.
 
    the Fifth kingdom mentioned by Daniel and Rome is likely again to become it's capital [that is the EU] .
Complete speculation again with no DIRECT Biblical support. This idea is just that - an idea. People then try to find scripture to support it. The scripture does not exist.


    with a future politico (AC) being the E.U.'s leader.
Again, complete speculation.

[As we begin to read the following, remember that ALL the scriptures must be reconciled.]

However, the Bible DOES DIRECTLY state that the Antichrist is "Assyrian" . Isa 10:12, Isa 14:25

The Bible DOES DIRECTLY state that the Antichrist kingdom arises in the region of the Empire of Alexander the Great. The BIBLICAL Location of the Empire

The Bible DOES DIRECTLY state the Antichristwill move his HQ to Jerusalem

The Bible DOES DIRECTLY state the Antichrist willAllow the Palestinians to Escape

The Bible DOES DIRECTLY state the Antichristwill be a descendent of Roman peoples .  John F Kennedy is a descendent of the Irish, but, when he ran for President, he was not from Ireland.  Additionally, I covered the "Roman" descent issue in a post [below]. [Of course, the point here is that a person can be descended from Roman people without residing in Rome or in the area of the European Union.   We already know that the antichrist is "Assyrian" (from above) and that he is of the Roman people.  Plus, we know (from above) that the kingdom of the antichrist rises in Assyria (where Alexander the Great's empire was).  After you add all THREE of these Biblical facts, you are precluded from a European Union antichrist and a European Union "empire" of the antichrist.]

Further, in the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, he saw an image of a man whose legs represented an empire divided into TWO (2) parts - West Rome AND East Rome.  East Rome was part of Rome also and it included "Syria."   The attempt to unify East and West Rome is religious in nature.   It is the public alternative to the Clash of Civilizations .


Then I received Response #2b

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Referring to these (my replies)
The king of Jordan's mother is British (Antoinette Gardiner). Hence, he is Roman.
The Bible never says his HQ is in Rome. If you can show me the verse, I'm open.

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Rev. 17:18 "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

The Apostle John wrote the book of Revelation in 90-95 A.D. Rome was the capital of the Roman empire at that time. John stated that in the end times, right before the Lord's Return, that this city would be ruling over the revived form of Daniel's fourth beast kingdom, in its fifth and final form.

To follow the logic of the first statement; I'm Franco/German therefore I am Roman because Gaul (ancient France's geographical area) was in the old Roman empire. I would respectfully disagree with that reasoning.


To which Ireplied -
The original issue was the headquarters of the antichrist. The "whore" is the woman riding the beast. Therefore, the woman does not equal the beast. Nor is the "whore" the antichrist. This verse says NOTHING about the antichrist or his headquarters.

Yes, John wrote in 90 AD. The expression "reigneth over the kings of the earth" IS PRESENT tense. Hence it identifies the "WHORE" by identifying her city in 90 AD. Looking at all the verb tenses in Rev 17 leads to the inevitable conclusion that "reigneth" clearly refers to 90 AD, not sometime in the future. Even if it DID refer to future, it still says NOTHING about the antichrist or his headquarters (CLEARLY). Hence your statement that

quote:
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John stated..that in the end times, right before the Lord's Return, that this city would be ruling over the revived form of Daniel's fourth beast kingdom, in its fifth and final form. ...
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is a definite stretch. The statement "reigneth" was clearly ADDED after the description of the future to show WHO the "whore" is. Besides that the "whore" is NOT the antichrist and therefore will reign over NO ONE. In fact, the antichrist does not "reign" over all the kings of the earth either. Only his WORSHIP is a worldwide phenomenon. If he DID reign over the "kings of the earth", how would China invade (against his political authority)? Further, even if your contention is correct that this verse refers to the endtimes, this would mean that the "whore" not the antichrist "reigns."

In point of fact it is said of the antichrist that "power was given him over all kindreds, tongues, and nations"  For what purpose?   Answer- "and all that dwell upon the earth shall WORSHIP him ."


quote:
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To follow the logic of the first statement; I'm Franco/German therefore I am Roman because Gaul (ancient France's geographical area) was in the old Roman empire. I would respectfully disagree with that reasoning..
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The statement in Daniel says CLEARLY

the PEOPLE of the Prince

NOT

the AREA geographic. Based on YOUR logic, Jesus would have to have been from UR of the Chaldees to be descended from Abraham.


Actually, if you follow the Franco/German logic above to its logical conclusion, NO ONE could be a "Roman" because NO ONE now lives in the "Roman Empire."


Continuing [to show that Rome DOES have a role]

The Subject Matter Here is the SOURCE of the antichrist's "world" power and the SCOPE of his "world" power and PURPOSE for which it is used.

Note that the "power" is religious in nature and purpose. Example, watch what the antichrist DOES with his "power."

First, toward what the antichrist's power is NOT-
Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

My point about Rev 13:4 is this- WHY ask the question about making war with the antichrist if he is ruling ALL the countries?

Now, on to what the antichrist's power IS-
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


What does he DO with this power?
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him , whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now, concerning the "whore" which is Rome as clearly shown in the last verse of Rev 17, WHERE does she SIT?
Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters :

What are these "waters"?
Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues .

Now, what is the POINT here? The POINT is the "whore" sits UPON the "peoples, multitudes, and nations, and tongues." Since the antichrist is a recipient: power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations ,

THEN

it naturally follows that the "whore" is the one able to GIVE this power. It is therefore religious power to persecute the saints and to set up a worship.  
[See also Daniel 7:25]

This coincides with Rome's purposes:


See this (for Rome's plan)


and

See this (for Rome's fornication)

See also the role of the Vatican (the woman) in relation to world government .

See the role of the Vatican (the woman) in relation to the supposed "Babylon", the "merchants" of the west .

There is no question that Rome has a place in prophecy.  The Vatican has publicly opposed the "siren song of power" of the Kremlin and the "Golden Internationale"  (money motive) of Western capitalists, but has been and still is involved with all political and economic powers.  This explains WHY the merchants weep over the destruction of the "woman", that "great city."


Here is that "Roman" descent post-
Scripture for the Antichrist being of "Roman" descent-

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary ; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

So, the "people" of the coming prince (the antichrist) "destroy the city". The Romans did this in 70 AD.

"The prince that shall come" is the antichrist.

Since the prince to come is from the people, then, the antichrist is of Roman descent.

Further-

Why the scripture does NOT mandate that the antichrist be a Jew-

"Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers" Dan 11:37

is regarded as meaning he will be Jewish (since the God in this verse is the "I AM").

Ishmael is descended from Abraham. Ishmael and his mother were cared for by the Almighty and promised an inheritance as well. So, if the antichrist is descended from Ishmael, he will regard not the "I AM."

In fact, the inheritance of Ishmael will be realized during the millennial when Assyria is also restored. Isa 19:24 (What a glorious day when Israel, Egypt, and Assyria are restored and Jesus Christ sits on the throne in Jerusalem).


About this topic, a question was asked:
Why do you think the prince to come is the antichrist?

The next verse Dan 9:27 says he causes the abomination of desolation in the middle of the week.

Jesus said in Mat 24:15 that when ye SEE the abomination of desolation THEN shall be

GREAT TRIBULATION.

So, Jesus clearly shows that the act of the PRINCE in the middle of Daniel's 70th week is that time called "Great Tribulation" (the last half of the week).

The "week" is revealed to be 7 years.


Read this for explanation of 7 years



On the subject of the genealogy of the antichrist TWO (2) questions were asked-
 
1. Do you think the Jews will believe that the antichrist is Messiah?
2. Then is the antichrist not required by Levitical LAW to have a certain bloodline?

 


First of all, NO sealed Jew (there are 144,000; 12,000 from each tribe) is going to believe anything except that Jesus Christ is their savior.

I am, of course, referring to the Tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble. There IS a great number of "tribulation saints", but, apparently, these are not Jews.

Now, to the questions. There is NO scripture that says that the Jews will believe the antichrist is the Messiah(that I know of).

There is "strong delusion" sent by the Lord that causes the tribulation lost to "believe a lie". The false prophet will make "fire come down" "in the sight of men." Apparently, this is AT or AFTER the "abomination of desolation" in the " midst of the week."

Based on what we know about the antichrist (from scripture) he has " power " "one hour" with the "ten kings ." This " one hour" is apparently in the 2nd half of the tribulation. The antichrist is to " continue " (some say "resume", some say "increase") for "forty and two (42) months ". This is the 2nd half of the tribulation.

He will have been enforcing ("confirming") the already existent " covenant" from the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel. " By peace he shall destroy many." He will be "confirming" initially by " conquering and to conquer."    This is military/political and has apparently nothing (in and of itself) to do with the Jewish religion. Apparently, it has only to do with " peace and safety " and dwelling in "unwalled villages."

Therefore, the existence of the covenant or its terms has NOTHING to do with the antichrist or his "work" (from any scripture that we have).

So, the antichrist for the first 3.5 years apparently does nothing "religious." We also know that he arises "not by his own power ". So, he is not a significant power on his own initially. And there is nothing until Revelation 13 that necessarily makes him a religious figure. However, some theorize that he will be assassinated and rise from the dead. If this is true, it might explain WHY he is promoted to be worshipped (upon penalty of death). There is also nothing in the scripture that says his entrance into the temple is welcomed by the Jews (that I can think of at the moment). It could be entirely "forced." We are talking an entirely secular nation in Israel. Plus, the "sealed" Jews are apparently carried away (to Petra many believe) via " wings of an eagle " (airlift?) to ESCAPE the antichrist.

"The lie" believed (the "strong delusion") is apparently the miracles of the false prophet who promotes the worship of the risen? antichrist. "Another shall some in HIS OWN name him "ye shall receive."

So, he (the antichrist) is not coming in the name of YAHWEH or the name of the Emmanuel, Messiah, etc. Apparently, he will not even CLAIM to be the Messiah. He WILL claim at the midpoint to BE "GOD" and set himself to be worshipped. Satan wants to be worshipped, but not as YAHWEH (as Satan himself) .

The more I think of the words of the Jordanian , who is also calling for a "regional security regime ."
He prefers a PAX DEI to a PAX AMERICANA, the more significant this statement appears. As it turns out, the antichrist's "god" will be the "god of forces." He will be apparently indwelt by Satan from the midpoint of the tribulation.  

Woe be to those who happen to live under a regime whose belief it is that theirs is a PAX DEI. (a peace from God)

Having said all this, it is hard to make it MANDATORY that the Jews believe he is the Messiah or that he pretends to be the Messiah.

Commentary is invited, if you have anything that contradicts this or leads to a view that he is believed to be the Messiah.

Remember, the antichrist's real power comes AFTER he "continues " 42 months (in Revelation).

This corresponds to the same time frame in Daniel.
Daniel 7:25   And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High , and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time (1 year) and times(2 years ) and the dividing of time .(one half a year)  

Therefore, during this 3.5 year time frame (also equals 42 months) the antichrist is "wear[ing] out the saints."  Again, you have the ascendancy of the antichrist (in the whole world) when he persecutes the saints and is worshipped .


05-18-2003
After publishing this page, I received the following critique:

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Nice site, very well thought out points.

I disagree with only one small point, but since you are open I would like to point this out.

Daniel 9:26-27
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Nowhere do I see here where the prince that shall come is the antichrist..

Everything here was fulfilled by Titus the Roman general who was sent by Nero, the Prince here could be refering to Nero or Titus. Since after he had conquered Jerusalem he burned the temple and made the whole of Judea desolate. You can read the history of it it's pretty terrible and brutal.

So I think the prince that shall come, came and went.

I still could be wrong, but nowhere in the whole chapter do I see any direct mentioning, or references, or connections to this being the antichrist. It is only referring to a prince who would come, and no special titles other than prince.

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This is not really "one small point."   It is a major point .  If this "one small point" were actually true, we would be totally lost in the understanding of prophecy!   Our entire understanding of the endtimes and the synchronization of the Books of Daniel and Revelation depends upon this "one small point."   So, let's look at this.  It deserves looking at because on the surface it appears that the reader is absolutely correct.  The word antichrist does not appear in these verses.


The Biblical Basis for a Seven Year Tribulation Period and its Starting Point

Daniel's 70th week, (called the "tribulation") lasts SEVEN (7) years.  Using the Jewish calendar, each year is 12 months of 30 days each, or 360 days per year.  Therefore, the "tribulation" will last 7 years X 360 days/year = 2,520 days. 

The question is - How do we KNOW that the tribulation lasts SEVEN (7) years?

Returning to the reader's "one small point" text (expanded to include 9:24 and 9:25), we read-

        Daniel 9:24   SEVENTY WEEKS(70) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 
 
From this verse we are to understand that SEVENTY (70) "weeks " are determined for "thy people."  Since these words are being spoken to Daniel, a Jew in the Kingdom of Babylon at the time, this means that SEVENTY "WEEKS" are determined for God's direct dealing with Daniel's people, the Jews.  So, what ARE these SEVENTY "WEEKS"?

         Daniel 9:25   Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks(7), and threescore and two weeks(62): the street shall be built  again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 
 
         Daniel 9:26   And after threescore and two weeks(62) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.  

From the 25th and 26th verses we have seven weeks(7) and we have threescore and two weeks(62) this gives us a total of 69 weeks.  We have ONE WEEK remaining .  What is this ONE WEEK?   We will find the answer in the next verse.  Before we go to the next verse, let's realize that when Messiah [was] cut off (that is, when Jesus was crucified on the cross) the 69th week ended.  Since this time (already having lasted nearly 2000 years) we have had an interval during which time God's direct dealing with the Jews as a nation has been placed on hold.  Why this is necessarily true we will discover shortly.  

        Daniel 9:27   And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (1) : and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The reason we know that the 70th "week" lasts 7 years is that the 7 "weeks" and 62 "weeks" (a total of 69 "weeks"), which have already happened, lasted exactly 483 years = 69 weeks  X  7 years/week

Messiah was "cutoff", crucified, exactly 483 years after the commandment of Artaxerxes to rebuild the temple, March 14, 445 B.C.  Daniel 9:25   Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks(7), and threescore and two weeks(62)

This whole prophecy was made in 538 B.C. while the Jews were in Babylon at the end of their 70-year captivity. 

The 1st 69 "weeks" were fulfilled exactly as predicted and the 70th "week" will also.

There are additional confirmations of the fact that Daniel's 70th week lasts SEVEN (7) years in the Book of Revelation as well.  We will look at these shortly.  In any case, 69 of the 70 "weeks" for Daniel's people, the Jews, have already happened.  A pause, which has lasted nearly 2,000 years, has delayed the start of the 70th week.  THE 70th WEEK will BEGIN sooner than we think .
Recent events and the reactions of the nations are leading the world to the fulfillment of this prophecy.

Remember - and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate   (Daniel 9:27)   Who IS the "he" of Daniel 9:27?   The "he" of Daniel 9:27 is the " the prince that shall come" of Daniel 9:26.    The " he" must of necessity refer to some individual in the preceding verse.  There are only TWO individuals in the preceding verse - Messiah and the prince that is to come .  Since Jesus Christ is not going to make the temple desolate, this leaves us with the prince that is to come .  The question then becomes - WHEN is the prince going to come?  The implication of the reader's question is that the prince ALREADY came in 70 AD when the Romans destroyed the temple.  In the absence of other testimony, the reader would be absolutely correct. However, we have a credible witness who testifies to this matter.  His testimony is that the prince has not come yet.

Who is the credible witness?  ...from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness (Rev 1:5)

...The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy   (Rev 19:10)  That is, the knowledge and understanding of prophecy is based upon the testimony of Jesus Christ Himself.

Unlock prophecy by seeing what Jesus said.   What did He say?  See Mathew 24:15-21.  

Matthew 24:15-21   When ye therefore shall see theabomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,stand in the holy place , (whoso readeth, let him understand:)   Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:   Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:   Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  For then shall be great tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be .

Jesus said-
Whenye therefore shall see theabomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,stand in the holy place,
He is referring to the "he" of Daniel 9:27.   The next expression refers to the reader who raised this " small point" (yes, reader, Jesus is speaking DIRECTLY to YOU- ( whoso readeth, let him understand:)  Whoso readeth WHAT?  Jesus is referring to not only what Daniel said, but also to what He (Jesus) was saying at the time, that it would be written down for us to read.  When Jesus made this statement, His words obviously had not been recorded.  They are recorded now and there are other words recorded as well (we shall see those momentarily).  Jesus was saying that when you read Daniel the prophet KNOW that Daniel's abomination of desolation would BEGIN the Great Tribulation - then shall be great tribulation .  Now, in case we WANTED to think that this abomination occured in the PAST, we have the statement of Jesus that it did not - such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  Since no "tribulation" shall be greater than that recorded in the Book of Revelation, then, the events to which Daniel (and Jesus) referred are in the future, NOT 70 A.D.

The other words to be recorded soon after Jesus spoke were these-
2 Thessalonians 2:4   Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
This is the abomination that maketh desolate - a man claiming to BE GOD, sitting in the temple of God, declaring that he IS GOD.
When is the man to do this?  Answer - in the midst of the week.

We have already establish that the week is SEVEN(7) years or 84 months or 3 and one half years.  Half of this week would be 42 months.  Since the antichrist sits in the temple in the midst of the week his "reign" shall be for 42 months.

Do we have confirmation of this in the Book of Revelation?

Yes, we have the Gentiles surrounding and controlling the temple (a security regime?) for 42 months.
Revelation 11:2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

When the antichrist assumes power and speaks blasphemy, he does it for a period of 42  months.
Revelation 13:5   And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies ; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months .

That this is the exact time (three and one half years) of another portion of Daniel's prophecy we see here -
Daniel 7:25   And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time(1) and times(2) and the dividing of time (1/2) = 3.5 years.

In the last chapter of Daniel the vision is "sealed up" until the time of the end.  The "seals" are opened in Revelation 6 which resumes the vision.  It is the Lord Jesus Christ, without whom we would know nothing, who tells us the mystery and OPENS the seals to complete the vision and to bring in everlasting righteousness .

Daniel 12:4   But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Revelation 5:1   And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

Revelation 5:5   And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.



Jewish Year = 12 months x 30 days = 360 days (x 3.5 years) = 1260 days for determining the time until the MIDST of the WEEK.  

Timeline


Rapture


Great Tribulation
Jesus





3 and 1/2 yrs

3 and 1/2 yrs
Christ

Iraq
New
"Peace"

1260 days

1260 days
Returns
1000 year
Invasion
Govt
Process
Rev 4:1
<Revelation 6--------
-----Revelation 19>
Rev 19:11
Reign
by
in

 
Nuclear war

42 months
through
of
US
Iraq

 1Thes
Military campaigns

times,time,halftime
Rev 19:20
Jesus Christ



 4:16-17
Famine

Armageddon

Rev20:4
                                                                               Dan9:27
                                                                               Mat24:15


UNKNOWN duration
Instant, Moment, Brief Time
KNOWN duration


End 05-18-2003


07-24-2005

Received the following email from Stephen.  It is food for thought.  First, I'll list the relevant portions of the email, then comment on the individual points.  The email is in smaller print.

Email Title - Your Dialogue With the EU Guy

For example, I don't think that Rome is even in the scope of the visions. Daniel sees the little horn (not Antiochus) coming out of the northern part of the Middle East at the time of the end. Just before that he sees Alexander's empire divide. There is nothing in between included in the vision.

Attempting to place Rome or any other subsequent empires in the visions only creates confusion. This is because they are not there. After Jesus was "cut off" (end of the 69th week) the next events in the visions are all associated with the future 70th week. The Roman invasions in 70 A.D. (30+ years later) are historical facts, but they are not included in prophecy for the time of the end. 

The "people of the prince that shall come" were not the Romans in the first century. They will be the people of the little horn (Abaddon is actually the prince) at the time of the end. 

The northern leg is the little horn's kingdom (most likely in northern Iraq) and he is in the king position that "is" at the beginning of the 70th week. The other leg is Egypt. The little horn will conquer Egypt in the process of controlling the Middle East.  

The little horn is "little" at first because his northern kingdon is small, but he will expand it to include most of the Middle East. He grows and gets bigger. He will be in the 6th king position at first and then will  fill the 7th king position of the larger kingdom of iron and clay. He is the iron in both kingdoms. 

The first beast of Revelation is Abaddon (a fallen angel) who "once was" (operating) ruling over the 5 heads (dominions) in the Middle East which are now historical. Abaddon was "not" during the Roman Empire, and still "is not", but will come out of the abyss at the beginning of the 70th week to rule over his 6th and 7th heads.

He will rule over the little horn's northern kingdom and then over the little horn's larger Middle Eastern kingdom. He will become the 8th king himself by possessing and incarnating the little horn and will rule for 42 months. He is Satan's christ (antichrist).

Satan and Abaddon are two different entities (fallen angels) they are not the same and it is Satan (the dragon) who gives Abaddon (the beast) his power and authority.

The 10 other horns are Middle Eastern heads of state who will follow the little horn and rule with him. Three of these will be overthrown and replaced by the little horn at the beginning of the 70th week. The 7 + 3  will then rule with the little horn.

I suspect that the little horn will be an Islamic leader who will gain a great following and these will be the ones who will worship Satan and his christ. The covenant will be a perversion of the Abrahamic covenant that God has with Israel. He will claim it (confirm) for Islam. The religion already teaches this now.

We need to watch this very carefully if it turns out that Islam is the cult religion of the beast. It may not seem that the Islamic world can match western military power, but Satan and Abaddon are very powerful angelic beings and this may make  the difference.

I  think that the second beast of Revelation (false prophet) is also another fallen angel who will manifest himself in two (two horns) religious clerics. These will lead the cult of Abaddon. Satan's attempt is to offset God's two witnesses (prophets).

"Woe unto the inhabitants of the earth because the devil has come down to you with great wrath because he knows his time is short."

The beast (little horn) and the 10 kings will hate mystery Babylon's "great city" and destroy it in one day. They will also envade and conquer Israel, and then attempt to rule the world from the Middle East. Mystery Babylon's "great city" will not be located in the Middle East where the little horn's power base is located.


Comments in Larger Print

For example, I don't think that Rome is even in the scope of the visions. Daniel sees the little horn (not Antiochus) coming out of the northern part of the Middle East at the time of the end. Just before that he sees Alexander's empire divide. There is nothing in between included in the vision.

Attempting to place Rome or any other subsequent empires in the visions only creates confusion. This is because they are not there. 


So, the antichrist arises within the 4th kingdom (consisting of 10 kings).  We see no lapse of time here.  His point is that the final kingdom IS the 4th kingdom and it is not Rome in any way.

Presumably, Stephen is referring to the following sets of verses in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8.

After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was  given to it.-- Daniel 7:6   (Everyone agrees that this 3rd kingdom is the Grecian Empire of Alexander the Great.)

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. -- Daniel 7:7  Stephen's point, (and how can you argue against the point using this verse only?) is that the 4th beast is the one with 10 horns.  So, how can it be Rome?  We all know the 10 horns are the final 10 kings.  This is further explained in the next verse with the introduction of the antichrist at the time of the 4th kingdom.  So, where is Rome?

I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.-- Daniel 7:8

Also, look at Daniel Chapter 8.

In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first. -- Daniel 8:1

And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai. -- Daniel 8:2  (near Basra in Iraq)

Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last. -- Daniel 8:3  (Medio-Persia, the 2nd beast from Daniel chapter 7)

I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. -- Daniel 8:4

And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. -- Daniel 8:5  (The horn is Alexander the Great)

And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
-- Daniel 8:6

And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. -- Daniel 8:7 (Alexander conquers the Medes and Persians.)

Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. -- Daniel 8:8 (Alexander's Empire is divided into 4 parts)

And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. -- Daniel 8:9  (The antichrist arises out of one of the 4 parts of the broken kingdom of Alexander.  We discover in the next verse that this little horn takes away the sacrifice against the "prince", Jesus Christ.  Consequently, chapter 8 agrees with 7 in that the little horn, antichrist, arises out of a part of Alexander's Empire.)

And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered. -- Daniel 8:10-12

Seen any place for Rome?  No, you have not.  Essentially, Stephen is saying that the two legs are not the split in the Roman Empire, but, the eventual split in the end times empire of antichrist into the Assyrian and Egyptian camps, king of the South and king of the North.  I have been concerned about reconciling Psalms 83 (which I believe represents the 10 kings, horns) with this split represented by the 2 legs of Daniel's Chapter 2 vision.  (See Daniel Chapter 11 starting with verse 36.)  Stephen, my friend, this does it.

Stephen Continues-
After Jesus was "cut off" (end of the 69th week) the next events in the visions are all associated with the future 70th week. The Roman invasions in 70 A.D. (30+ years later) are historical facts, but they are not included in prophecy for the time of the end. The "people of the prince that shall come" were not the Romans in the first century. They will be the people of the little horn (Abaddon is actually the prince) at the time of the end.

Well, I have to disagree with that because the city of Jerusalem will exist and be divided into halves at the moment of the physical return of Jesus Christ (Zech 14:2).  If the antichrist destroyed the city during the 70th week of Daniel, then, it could not exist in Zech 14:2. Therefore, the destruction of the city of Jerusalem in 70 AD is the destruction described in Daniel 9:26. 

And after (AFTER the 69th week, not on the day ending the 69th week, interim period started about 2 days before the crucifixion after He entered Jerusalem) threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off , but not for himself:  and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (end of the interim period) -- Daniel 9:26   Notice that some people, not the antichrist, destroy the city but, the people are the ancestors of the eventual antichrist, prince to come.  As it turns out, these people are the Etruscans serving with the Roman army and the Etruscans are in fact Assyrians and the antichrist is an Assyrian.

(start of the 70th week) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. -- Daniel 9:27

However, what Stephen is saying still turns out to be true, but only indirectly.  The people are not Romans in a modern day sense, but they are Etruscans, Assyrians in a modern day sense.  We just do not have to require the city be destoyed by the antichrist to make this happen.

Stephen Continues-
The northern leg is the little horn's kingdom (most likely in northern Iraq) and he is in the king position that "is" at the beginning of the 70th week. The other leg is Egypt. The little horn will conquer Egypt in the process of controlling the Middle East.   The little horn is "little" at first because his northern kingdon is small, but he will expand it to include most of the Middle East. He grows and gets bigger. He will be in the 6th king position at first and then will  fill the 7th king position of the larger kingdom of iron and clay. He is the iron in both kingdoms.  The first beast of Revelation is Abaddon (a fallen angel) who "once was" (operating) ruling over the 5 heads (dominions) in the Middle East which are now historical. Abaddon was "not" during the Roman Empire, and still "is not", but will come out of the abyss at the beginning of the 70th week to rule over his 6th and 7th heads. He will rule over the little horn's northern kingdom and then over the little horn's larger Middle Eastern kingdom. He will become the 8th king himself by possessing and incarnating the little horn and will rule for 42 months. He is Satan's christ (antichrist).  Satan and Abaddon are two different entities (fallen angels) they are not the same and it is Satan (the dragon) who gives Abaddon (the beast) his power and authority.

Comments
Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.   [42 months of continuation]
Revelation 17:11  And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The FIVE kings that had fallen in 90 AD, at the time of the writing of Revelation, were
1.Egypt  2.Assyria  3.Babylon  4.Medo-Persia  5.Greece [the 5 heads (dominions) in the Middle East which are now historical]

If you take the verse as reckoned with the time in which it was written, you get- At the time of the writing in 90 AD, one "is", this would be the then Roman Empire, the 6th "king".  If you take the verse as reckoned with the time of the end, you get the "little horn" of Daniel, the antichrist as the 6th "king."  This choice is not that critical in that you are going to end up in both cases with the antichrist and then some kind of "incarnation."   Stephen says that this "incarnation" is of Abaddon.  Another view of this incarnation is presented here.  Either one has the antichrist being incarnated by another being.  This "incarnated" king, the 8th, is the one on which the "woman" will sit.  I believe the incarnation occurs at the mid-point of the tribulation.

After the ascension of the "beast" from the "bottomless pit" in Revelation 11:7 (the apparent incarnation of the antichrist), the antichrist will be the 8th king and he will be "of the seven", that is, of the same RELIGIOUS kingdom as the previous seven.  That is, the woman will "sit on" (control) the antichrist AFTER his resurrection.

Stephen Continues-
The 10 other horns are Middle Eastern heads of state who will follow the little horn and rule with him. Three of these will be overthrown and replaced by the little horn at the beginning of the 70th week. The 7 + 3  will then rule with the little horn.

Agree, see this.

More from Stephen-
I suspect that the little horn will be an Islamic leader who will gain a great following and these will be the ones who will worship Satan and his christ. The covenant will be a perversion of the Abrahamic covenant that God has with Israel. He will claim it (confirm) for Islam. The religion already teaches this now. We need to watch this very carefully if it turns out that Islam is the cult religion of the beast. It may not seem that the Islamic world can match western military power, but Satan and Abaddon are very powerful angelic beings and this may make  the difference.

Certainly possible, but, do not count out the influence of the Vatican.

Stephen-
I  think that the second beast of Revelation (false prophet) is also another fallen angel who will manifest himself in two (two horns) religious clerics. These will lead the cult of Abaddon. Satan's attempt is to offset God's two witnesses (prophets).

Maybe, but the two witnesses will already be dead at this point.  They die right after the mid-point.

Stephen-
"Woe unto the inhabitants of the earth because the devil has come down to you with great wrath because he knows his time is short."

Right after/at the midpoint does the devil know his time is short.

Stephen-
The beast (little horn) and the 10 kings will hate mystery Babylon's "great city" and destroy it in one day. They will also envade and conquer Israel, and then attempt to rule the world from the Middle East. Mystery Babylon's "great city" will not be located in the Middle East where the little horn's power base is located.

Agree

End 07-24-2005





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